Its not that we dont like helping others… We just like to do it on our terms… I donate my money to research of a few different diseases (Cancer and Parkinsons mainly) and I dontate my time to all sorts of charities (Run a couple events through work annually) and my time and money into coaching youth sports… And I could do even more if the government didnt take my money, skim off the top and redistribute it to their liking.
That is why some of us in America get upset when the government decides for us where the money we make goes… And I dont know what lame ass country you are from but take a look at all the blood, sweat and money that America has given for others in this world before mocking us over OUR health care plan and system
I can’t belive so many people are against good universal health care. Shouldn’t it a basic human right? .. Maybe it’s just because I live in a country with health care for everyone, that i think it’s so wierd.
America may claim to have the best health care in the world but that doesn’t mean shit if it’s not accessible to everyone. I broke my leg two years ago and how much did it cost me? $5 for medicine after my surgery.
Oh and an American friend of mine who came over to New Zealand for a holiday told me that he had surgery booked and two weeks before his procedure the nurse called him and said that his insurance wouldn’t cover him for the whole cost of his surgery. He’s like,”Okay, I’ll just pull $1500 out of my ass?!” lol
@ kiwigurl… maybe he could of not flown across the world to new zealand… fairly sure that cost more than 1500… We dont pay as much in taxes as some of you countries that get this socialized medicine… so its our responsibility to prioritize and plan correctly… I have friends that bitch about not having insurance, but then go to vegas, take classes, eat out often and all that shit… fuck that… Why should I have to pay for people going to new zealand and vegas… I dont go on extravagent trips… oh thats right, cuz I’m responsible… fuck your friend
And have you ever noticed how no one but Americans think that Americans have the best health care in the world? It’s faster, that’s really the only thing that makes it better, and it’s only faster because a huge chunk of your population can’t get health care when they need it.
I’m trying to look at this from an outside view, and it’s hard, considering I have 3 pre-existing conditions that could have prevented me from getting insurance to help cover a liver transplant I’ll have. It seems to me that those against the bill tend to ignore the potential good the bill can do while the people for the bill tend to ignore the potential bad the bill can do. We’ll see, wont we?
no… not fuck everyone… adults should be responsible for themselves… I’m all for helping the children… and you obviously didnt read all my posts because I donate plenty of my time and my money… I just like the government doing that for me… not sure how that equates to fuck everyone… just that chics friend bitches about having to pay for a surgery, but then flys around the world… US to Australia is not a cheap flight
And there are people who barely make enough money to fill their tank and go to work, so they walk. They have hamburger helper for dinner and drink tap water, wishing they can afford to go out to eat just once a month. They don’t have health care either. It’s not just a bunch of lazy bastards, but some good, honest, hard working people who simply can’t afford it or have uncontrollable pre-existing conditions (getting raped more than once counts according to some companies) and get denied.
hmm. I’m not getting into an anti-American debate, but I don’t get why American’s believe that other countries should respect them so much for how “amazing” they are.
They’ve certainly shared out the bloodshed, no doubt about that, but then there are no countries that don’t have a bad history, not that I know of anyway.
Also, as a whole, you elected your president and chose your government. Deal with it like everybody else does.
Also, I didn’t once mock your healthcare system in my previous post, merely commented on how everyone in the posts was bitching about being forced to help eachother.
I’d find it a bit amusing if they all from any country.
I also do not care what you do for charity or how much of an awesome person you are.
Get off your high and mighty ass and get a grip of yo’self.
And this is why the rest af the western world laughs at the citizens of the US of A. Narrow minded, selfish, spoiled, why-should-I-care-about-others attitude. You will much rather kill people than give them a good life!
Cassandra: You are my hero!
so you want to help people with cancer and parkinsons but not people with other health problems? you don’t want to distribute your money amongst other diseases and conditions? that’s what i’m getting from that.
basically if you oppose universal health care you don’t give a shit about people as far as I’m concerned. You’d rather let people suffer than have a small portion of your earnings shared amongst everyone who desperately needs it. I don’t see any other way of looking at it.
Well, we don’t outright laugh at the USA, but we do kind of snigger about how proud they are about all the good they do in the world. I mean, per capita Canada blows the US out of the water in terms of international aid in places like Haiti. But the Americans still pat themselves on the back and tell themselves they single handedly saved the world anyway. They do good things but they are way too all over themselves about it.
@slimjayz Um actually his surgery was a few years ago before he came to New Zealand. It’s not like he booked his flight straight out of his operation. And it was a family reunion so the whole family pooled together for our overseas family since New Zealand was hosting it this year. It’ll be nice if you keep your anger under control and not make pre judgments on people you don’t even know. I am happy to pay a slightly higher tax if it means that I can get immediate surgery and only have to pay $3-$10 for medicine. Like I said before, broke my leg two years ago, straight into surgery and only had to pay $5 for after care medicine. Oh and a US expat who lives here (been here for about a year) broke his collarbone. They spent a whopping $3 on each of two prescriptions (including some codeine) and $9 on some over-the-counter paracetamol, which is like Tylenol they tell us. These are NZ dollars too, so we’re talking only about $10 USD. And nothing at all from the hospital
I agree with the part of the bill pertaining to pre-existing conditions… its not actually all bad… And I dont even think the system we have in America is the best… Its just this bill has a lot of items about pricing and mandatories that I think out weight the good
I just get tired with folks from other countries ripping us like we are some heartless bastards in America… I’m not against people getting medical attention… I just hate people that bitch they dont have it and yet spend their money on extravagences… And if you really need medical attention in American you can get it… In fact our cost are so high in large part to the illegal immigrants that use our system constantly… our emergancy rooms are not allowed to turn anyone away if they have a pressing medical issue
Well, we don’t outright laugh at the USA, but we do kind of snicker about how proud they are about all the good they do in the world. I mean, per capita Canada blows the US out of the water in terms of international aid in places like Haiti. But the Americans still pat themselves on the back and tell themselves they single handedly saved the world anyway. They do good things but they are way too all over themselves about it.
i’m not going to join this debate but i do have to say to the people who are saying all americans are the same; we’re not. don’t judge me because there are some selfish people who live here. my guess is every country has their fair share of people like that but i’m not going to judge those countries. i’m smart enough to realize that just because there are a few bad seeds doesn’t mean the whole country is like that.
@virgo79 of course you’re not all the same. If anything you are the most diverse country in the world because jesus christ, check out the outraged arguments going on over the health care debate. But when people say Americans they’re not necessarily saying all Americans. But there are in fact Americans who say that way. Do we really need to specify that we know not all Americans are like that every time we use the term Americans?
@mypoint, That is pretty much the majority of Americans unfortunately.
Why the majority of Americans are so against this healthcare plan is beyond me… why not help out other Americans? The UK among other countries have had a healthcare system where everyone benefits for a while now, I think it’s a good healthcare system too, not everyone can afford to pay for surgery and medicine even those who desperately need it.
I also love Cassandras response too, funniest of them all.
jeweldrop. Yeah, but you said “good” universal health care.
@dannhatesyou: Making difiinitive statements is ignorant.
You guys really think this is a good bill? You think that OUR government is capable of providing decent health care? I think you are all giving the gov’t way too much credit. This is going to be a horrible system of sick care that makes the drug companies richer and the government even larger. Disaster. This will be nothing like the healthcare systems that other countries love. We need to first start with torque reform.
And leave slimjayz alone bedcause you are so blinded my the emotion tied to this bill that you can’t even see the logic in his statements.
Well have you thought about WHY we have that view on Americans? Have you thought about how you portray yourselves? Believe me, you will have to search long and hard to find other countries where so many uproars have been made toward creating somewhat equal playing-grounds for human beings.
Now, i don’t want to say all american’s are fearful, twitchy morons, but i really don’t see what could possibly be wrong with making sure everyone in that massive, poverty filled nation has access to quality health care, not even insurance, because that shouldn’t even be an issue, just health care, so that normal people don’t have to spend a month’s salary to get necessary surgery.
THEY SHOULD TAX ALL THE FUCKING BOOB AND NOSE JOBS IN THAT AMERICA, because those are the people protesting, the people who have excess money to spend on pampering themselves. fucking fearful rats.
I cannot wait for america to collapse; please be in the next 50 years.
I don’t expect you non-Americans to understand the concept of wanting to keep what you earn, or God forbid, wanting to pay for services yourself instead of taking a free handout from the government. Your countries have all been liberal for years.
@sillymerricat I’m pretty sure I’m not blinded by emotion, I’m Canadian and have nothing invested in the debate really. but why do you think that your universal health care will be worse than in other countries? I can tell you right now that the drug companies exploit the health care in Canada and get rich as hell, but that’s no different than what the insurance companies are doing in the states now. The drug companies making a little extra money doesn’t really affect the quality of our care though. I’ve had multiple dealings with our system and I’ve got nothing but good things to say about it. Paying a little extra for your drugs is a small price to pay for not having to pay for ANYTHING else.
I have seen these poor people… I have seen them get money and blow it on garbage in weeks… Seriously I know this one couple with a kid that was about to get evicted out of their 1 bedroom apartment… he cashed out his retirement, rented furnature, bought a laptop, new cell phones and a number of other items that were not needed. (Ie, furnature can be had for cheap of free at craigslist, they had a PC and cell phones and they werent needed for work)… one month later they were wondering how to pay rent again
Now you expect me to see that and feel bad for them and want my money to go cover any of their expenses? They do have a kid and I would like to make sure that kid can get medical attention, which he can… but for the adults… I hope they live long enough to raise their child and then I could care less
I have also been poor… I grew up with nothing… didnt have insurance for most of my childhood… but when I got sick and had to go in I was taken care of… its not like in america the poor are all laying around hospitals just wishing they could get help… And the rest of us americans looking down on them saying, ‘get jobs you poor fucks’ Sure sometimes is costs you… but its going to cost that anyways and someone has to pick up the tab, so why not the guy racking the tab up
oh god stansel, of course. All we non-American’s are so low and cheap we crave our next government hand-out. God do we miss Robin Hood.
It’s not all about wanting free stuff, it’s about making sure that everyone in the country is able to live a decent quality of life.
I can understand that American people may be angry that some of the people using the new Healthcare system may indeed be bad people. But what about all the good, decent people who work hard and do their best in life but still cannot afford to pay for care when they fall ill?
It is a good thing. Whether you are rich enough to not need to benefit from it or not.
@Robocarnage: Oh we will collapse, in sooner than 50 years. To me, I visualize the value of our dollar being maintained by a child playing with a balloon trying to keep it from hitting the ground by running around the room and hitting it back up into the air.
And double Holy crud, *tort. I mean, seriously, talk about losing self credibility.
To those who are so against the healthcare bill: Take a look at the comments here. Most of the positives toward your bill are made by people who live in countries where healthcare has been a natural part of our lives for generations. We couldn’t imagine living without it. It is not a bad thing! And it certainly is not a sign of Freeloading!!
not patting anyone on the back… just the evidence doesnt support the claim that we americans are a careless bunch… And congrats on the canadian government giving money… thats cool… but i never accused canadians of being heartless and uncaring
The thing about life and money Slim is that occasionally when people are poor their whole lives and never have the luxuries that other people do, when they get a bit of cash, sometimes it’s nice to live a little deluded and treat yourself.
I’m sure sometimes you buy things that you don’t need.
I think you’re being incredibly stupid.
I don’t believe they should be bailed out for the rent because they spent all their money, but I wouldn’t think it unreasonable for them to be able to get a broken leg fixed without ending up in debt.
You have your priorities all wrong.
you dont want america to collapse… we are like your drunk asshole friend… we can be obnoxious and rude, but when you get in a fight there is no one else you’d rather have on your side… plus we always pick up the tab… ask the ‘united nations’
XS- i can kind of see where sillymerricat is coming from about giving our govt a little too much credit. i’m not sure i trust them to be able to give universal health care without fucking it up somehow. maybe if they were to get advice from other countries who already have it, i’d have more confidence in them but i highly doubt they will do that. i know i got defensive earlier about the sterotyping of americans but i’m going to sterotype our govt right now (hypocritical, i know). they’re fucking pompous morons who think they know everything when really they don’t know shit. i’m all for everyone having access to healthcare because i think it’s very important. i just don’t trust our govt.
@XS Good points from your side of the border. But I don’t think that our government can facilitate this task.
Trust me, I wish it was different. I am about to have my second son and I will be paying a total of $700/month for REALLY good coverage. That is a huge chunk of our income. And I have three seperate policies for our family of four just to get the best deal. And if this child, God forbid, has an pre-existing conditions they will be denied coverage and I will have to add him to my work policy and will end up paying $990/month instead. I mean, I have a seperate home business just to pay for it. However, I’d still rather pay this then have the government in charge of my health care. I think we need reform, yes. But not with this type of bill.
NOTHING IN THIS WORLD IS FREE!!! anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant. If you can’t afford your health care, who is paying for it?? Instead of a government run health care (which has proven in MULTIPLE countries to have less adequate care than the United States as well as wait lists for surgeries and appointments) why not fix the things wrong: I.E stop frivilous law suits and torte reform so the costs of Insurance premiums will go down. Name ONE, just ONE goverment run program in the U.S that hasn’t gone bankrupt and works accurately. Why tear down the entire house just to remodel your kitchen.
@ashhunt42, thanks for posting that graph! That was a shock! Having lived in countries where there is universal healthcare, I am flabberghasted that there are those who are not wanting others to have the chance to use it.
A lot of Americans are mad about the bill because the private insurance companies have been twisting the words of the bill to fit their own needs for months. They have been shoving propaganda down our throats since it was proposed. With millions of dollars it is easy to manipulate the masses, most of them are fairly simple minded.
Trust me, I know there are people who don’t have anything and when they finally get some money, they blow it on junk. I lived with one of those people for awhile, so believe me, I know.
I’m not asking you to feel sorry for anyone. I’m just saying that there are hard working adults who have too many expenses as it is and can’t afford health insurance, even if something happens and they need it.
@Virgo And you never should trust your government. Hell, don’t get me wrong, I’m a flat out Anarchist. I don’t feel there is any need for government whatsoever. They’re a bunch of rich guy who get paid rich salaries to make a big show about arguing with each other. If you get rid of the whole arena of politics and let the health system and the justice system and everything run themselves without government interference there would be more than enough money to go around and I think everything would run much more smoothly. After all, the people actually involved in those systems have a lot more experience and knowledge than politicians do, why not leave them to run things themselves and make their own desicions. But as long as people feel like voting means something we’ll have to make do with what we’ve got.
yep… I buy things I dont need for myself… NOW… but when I was in college, living with crappy roommates and paying for shitty medical coverage out the ass I didnt… I could of not had insurance… I probably could of gotten some of those not needed things then… but I prioritized… I worked hard to get to a place I could buy crap I dont need… but really its just weed… I’m a stoner… the rest of my money goes to needs, charities or my families wants… I dont need much to be happy
its all about priorities and responsibility in the choices we make… thats what america is about… you can be as big of a success of failure that you want to be
Now all of that said I wouldnt mind sociallized health care, if it were done right… I dont think this bill is done right at all… Basically the part about pre-existing conditions is great and most the rest is garbage… But I just dont believe that thinking our current system isnt too bad makes us into these uncaring and evil americans (Although I admit that the dumb fucks that end up on lamebook dont help americas reputation, lol)
I think the people bashing Americans are showing just as little compassion and understanding as the selfish Americans unwilling to accept universal health care. Your defense is that it’s easier to stereotype? So you’re saying that it’s fair to make statements about the entire US based on a minority of people? I think that’s hardly fair.
Maybe it’s just where I’m from (the Northeast), but the VAST majority of people I know support universal health care, donate time and money to charity, and are generally very caring people. The radical conservatives are far more vocal, I do not believe they make up the majority. Furthermore, many of those opposed to health care are not opposed to the idea of covering more people, but have specific issues with finer points in the legislation. Yes, many Americans have an unbelievably selfish view on the whole matter, thinking only of their wealth. And those people are the most vocal, perhaps because they feel they have much to lose. But do not assume that those people — while admittedly loud and possibly numerous — are the majority. I assure you that they are not.
@ slimjayz I cannot believe this but I actually agree with you on some of your points. I think that the solution would be more government regulation of insurance companies, not government health care. I have a sister-in-law who cannot get insurance because of a pre-existing condition, I am happy that she will now be a able to get covered and yet if the government would just force the companies to provide health care to her I would have been happier. It is never good when a government gets to much control of the people and that is what is happening with the new health care bill.
Man this makes me want to sing O Canada… I love my country, and thank God we have universal health care. I will never practice medicine in the US unless it changes towards a more universal system like Canada’s.
@ashhunt42 and @dannhatesyou…. thanks for the links. I think a picture helps people understand.
@romsifer i thought we already established that no one is bashing Americans as a whole. Can you not realize that absolutely everyone knows that you’re not all like that. Do we really have to state that every time we use the term Americans in that negative fashion that we only mean that section of your population?
Well here’s the pat on the back you’ve been asking for ever since you brought up how charitable you were in the first place.
Go you for being able to prioritise. I am certain you are aware that some people are unlike you and find it harder to focus on how to get where they want to be. Some people stray from the straight and narrow too early and end up blowing all their cash on shit.
Those bad people don’t get the pats on the back that you do.
I repeat, I do not care about your personal life. That doesn’t need to be mentioned at all.
Fair enough if you don’t think the new bill will work out and you’re not happy with it, but when you start making outrageous statements like – I don’t wanna pay for pricks who can’t afford to get healed by those wonderful doctors, it makes you sound insensitive and stupid as some people really need the care that they can’t afford out of no fault of their own.
XS- “After all, the people actually involved in those systems have a lot more experience and knowledge than politicians do, why not leave them to run things themselves and make their own desicions.” that is exactly how i feel too!! my mom is a teacher so my govt pet peeve right now is that the politicians think they know more about education than teachers who have been to college and have degrees in the field. it’s ridiculous. they know nothing and now our education system has gone to shit.
Sorry, I apologise, when I said it’s easier to stereotype, I meant it’s easier to say American’s in multiple sentences than each time you speak on the matter clarify that you only mean the Americans that are saying silly things.
@ lemon… way to go in not geting a joke… But in honesty, yes… I am proud of the ass kickings we have administored on behalf of others that were down trodden and I am pround of the money and people that have come out of this country to make the world a better place… are we perfect, no… but are we the best damn country on this planet, no, but a close second to Kazakhstan
Wow, this thread is lamer then a “make me a sammich” joke. All of you need to relax, it doesn’t matter what ANY of us think, the bill was passed already. What is the real debate here? Whether or not Americans are selfish? Yes, Americans are selfish, but so are Canadians, Germans, and so on and so forth. PEOPLE are selfish assholes, it’s been that way since the first cave man hid his food stuffs even though the guy six caves down really needed a bite to eat. People will never NOT be selfish, get over it.
and also, as it appears you need a lot of clarification, when I said about drunken assholes who are only good for paying the bill and busting heads, please refer to Slimjays comment before that, where he refers to himself and America as aforementioned asshole.
Just making sure, I don’t want to come across as though I think bad of all Americans.
I have nothing against America, I have been there many times and it is a beautiful country. You would be hard-pushed to find more decent, genuinely nice people anywhere. But having grown up in a country with socialised healthcare that has saved my life and members of my family’s lives on more than one occasion, I find it hard to see the resistance to this reform. Yes, taxes will be higher, but isn’t the peace of mind that it provides worth it? Other aspects of government are already socialised anyway. It’s not like the fire department charge you to put out your house fire, or the police make you pay a bill if they arrest someone trying to mug you. Hasn’t this reform been a long time coming? I know I have no right to say all this, and someone will no doubt correct me, but isn’t the idea that someone of a low income who works hard will not have to suffer from easily preventable diseases a good thing? Isn’t equality worth paying a little extra for? Shouldn’t the Land of the Free also be the Land of the Healthy? Just a thought.
Virgo- Yeah, a few years ago some doctors got together to set prices. These doctors wanted to attempt to keep health care affordable but by doing this they had to set prices on what they would charge patients. The courts ruled this as illegal. Friking ridiculous, this is exactly the sort of thing they should be allowed to do.
I just want to say yay for Liberalism. The stereotypical American fear [and by this I do not mean every American] that any Socialist act is wrong amuses me. If Obama messess up I’m sure you will all vote him out and get someone new who will change it back, but the let the poor boy have a wee shot.
No doubt health care in America needs to be made affordable and accessible to ALL Americans. I don’t think you would find anyone here who disagrees with that statement, However, there are other ways to do this aside from Government take over. America, no doubt, has the best health care in the world, why should we completely change that? Insurance companies need to be in check and torte reform is necessary to lower the costs of insurance premiums so that Americans can afford it. THAT is why we are mad, not because we don’t want Americans to have access to health care, but because we don’t agree with the bill Obama has passed.
So my own personal experiences in dealing with this issue are not relevent to this issue?… I live here and have dealt with the system both as someone poor and as someone in the middle classs… so guess what, you twat… its relevant… you obviously are the kindest and most caring person in the world and your country is so much better for having you… its great that you can give so much of your paycheck to your government so they can do your heavy lifting… no sense in forcing you are anyone esle in this world to have some responsiblity for your actions… just spend all our time that you arent productive reading and studying up on how much better you are than americans because your heart bleeds for the stupid and irresponsible… good for you… here is your pat on the back
And by the way… i never asked for a pat… i was just making the point that we are charitable in america… we just dont like our fat cat senators skimming off the top of it… sorry if thats a concept you dont get
I was going to say something cute and slightly perverted in response to the word flow (because I’m not sure I’m really a woman), but I don’t want to ruin the serious feel of this comment thread. So instead I say, thanks for the ego pat, I will sleep happy tonight. (Other people on this thread will still be mad by the time they go to bed….)
This video and your attitude sicken me and make me SO incredibly thankful that not all Americans are like you.
Your argument doesn’t hold water….basically you are saying that you care about certain people and that you really could give two sh*ts about everyone else. It is like saying you aren’t a racist because you have a black friend.
Get over yourself.
The trouble with closed minds is that they often come with open mouths.
read the bill… this isnt universal healthcare… its patchwork crap that will mostly just chase doctors away and cost me money… no one more is really going to be covered than before… the only decent part of the bill is the pre-existing conditions part
Wow, I cannot believe people actually thought Cassandra was serious. Have you never heard of sarcasm?
Personally, I’m so glad that we finally have universal healthcare. It’s about time. Having universal healthcare should be a given in a progressive country. Everyone deserves to be treated when they have medical issues, regardless of their financial status. Yeah, this may mean higher taxes, but the money will help millions of people (including children!), and the tax rates won’t increase that dramatically. Just because you may not have been in a situation where you were not able to afford treatment doesn’t mean that other people should have to suffer, especially for diseases like cancer, where the treatment costs THOUSANDS of dollars. Low-income parents shouldn’t have to choose between having healthcare and feeding their families. Even if I have to make a few sacrifices because of the raised prices, I’ll feel comforted knowing that some of my money will be used to help others stay alive. Lives are infinitely more valuable than material objects.
My my, you’ve suddenly become very fiesty slim.
Thankyou for the pat btw, I wasn’t asking for one in return but I’m glad you could share the feeling.
How is you smoking weed and donating to a few select charities relevent by the way?
I didn’t realise I said me and my country are better than Americans because that would be completely the wrong end of the stick.
I think my country is shit and all.
I just think that everyone being able to get healthcare regardless of how much money they have is a basic right. And your country is all about having rights isn’t it?
And I’m not trying to be nasty with that comment.
& oh I know, how awful that a government should help it’s people?
I am responsible for my actions, and I think you have the wrong idea about how the rest of the world works. We don’t get saved by the government for every mistake we make. I don’t know where you got that idea from.
There are charitable people all over the world too sonny, and I don’t think anybody is too happy about fat cats getting money, but I think people would rather have a shot at healthcare than anything else.
nice… i have nothing in common with teabaggers of any kinds… I am socially liberal and economically conservative… this basically means I argue with everyone about politics… they all accuse me of being on the other side when really I think both sides are manipulative shits… Its crazy… So yes, please dont compare me to some group in america just because we agree on one or two issues with them
I would love to hear a cute response to the word flow.
I’m glad I could make somebody feel good about themselves today, I think I’m having trouble with other people in this thread.
I too am glad that I will be able to sleep soundly tonight, despite being drawn into a pointless arguement over something already done. Oh well.
Maybe people should be aware of why the humans get in need of health assistance, it´s mainly for poor hygiene, bad nutrition or unappropiate working conditions. Who fulfill all those conditions: poor people, of course the one with no money. Who get benefit of that workforce, richer ones. And yet you think it´s not “OK” to have passed that bill?. This is not anti-USA feellings, it’s simply economics. I’m from Argentina, here health assistance and college education are completely free. Of course, there are private systems with higher quality standars, for those who can afford that. But there must be basic services, at least to give the society the chance of survive (and maybe, if they don´t have money but a great will, some college education)
@slimjayz I accept you probably know more about this than me, but I really don’t think that the bill will chase doctors away. We have the NHS here, it’s expensive (in taxes), yes, and doctors/nurses don’t get paid a fortune, despite what Moore’s Sicko implied. Yet more people than ever are becoming doctors, including one of my close family members. He knows that the pay will not be great, it’s hard work in NHS hospitals because of the sheer volume of patients, but it’s the best system. It was a shock when the system was implicated (after WW2), but after a while people wondered how they ever did without it. Most folks, certainly in this country, have a reverence for it (despite what that Tory twat who went on Fox news last year said) and people exploiting the system are thankfully few and far between. Give it a while. The government needs time to work out the problems and if it doesn’t work, just vote out Obama next time. Simple.
It’s not hard to make me feel good about myself, I’m like a puppy, pet me the right way and give me a good meal or two and I’ll be your best friend! Just don’t spray me in the face with water if I pee on the floor…I promise I’m housebroken.
People love to argue about anything, if you say the sky is blue there is someone within a block of you that thinks it’s going to rain and will debate that fact with you. I’m not one of those people.
Everyone keeps saying universal health care wouldn’t but that bad but keep complaining about “this bill”. You know if people hadn’t complained so damn much about it in the first place it wouldn’t have got the shit amended out of it and it would still be the decent piece of work it was in the first place.
Regarding the graph in the link in post 26, I grew up in America and always had health insurance but NEVER went to the doctor. If I had to see a doctor I wouldn’t even know what to do.
Since I’ve lived in Australia I go to see a doctor even for just a cold because there are medical centres everywhere and it’s convenient and free. In America I think I paid $16 every two weeks for insurance through my work. I think I now have to pay $750/year for public Medicare because of my income and because I choose to not have private health insurance which would cost about 200/month for myself and my wife. I don’t mind paying the Medicare cost at all, even if other people have the same coverage as me and don’t work, etc.
Ok… one final word on this health care debate… innovation
Its a simple word, but means so much… The life saving innovations made by the competative market in American have been used throughout the word to save lives… Yes, even the socialized countries have picked up our technologies to help themselves provide better heathcare… without america and our competative market, healthcare around the world would decline… because without monetary incentives, innovation slows to a crawl
Just an often ignored aspect of what our system brings to the table
Thank you Lamebook, for now I have both sides of the argument, and shan’t look like the ignorant little fucker I really am when my fiancee brings up the healthcare bill.
Also, she’s Republican, so if you’d like to make me a Lamebook post to help there, that’d be great, cos my knowledge of American politics amounts to ‘the new President is black and has a dog’.
The news is more fun with the sound off.
I too come from a country where health care and education as a whole is free. In fact students get paid to study. Yes, our tax rate is fairly high, but VERY few complain about it because it is in the best interest of the country that everyone has an equal chance of staying healthy and well educated.
We do have private hospitals and schools, but high schools and universities are free. And the government still pays toward the private systems.
slim, where did American’s come from originally?
I think you’ll find that for a person from a nation that has origins outside of the country they stole, you’re awfully boastful about how much better than the rest of the world you are.
There are life-saving inventions and better ideas about healthcare systems in other countries, your country is not the gift from god we’ve all been waiting for.
I’m not denying the fact that there is a mass of amazing things that America have produced, it’s just a bit irksome when some American’s speak as though they’re the bee knees.
As a doctor, you are obliged to help if someone is sick, regardless of how you will be repayed lateron. A state is obliged to care for its citizens and one of the very basic needs of every citizen is to be helped if sick, regardless of their social circumstances. I feel it’s a disgrace that it took a country like America so very long to finally decide on proper health care for every citizen, when the oh-so-praised American dream was not just about individuality, but also about equal opportunity (a very basic idea of the free marked btw). Now, you tell me, how does having to pay enormous amounts of money for an operation and going into debt support this idea in any way. Suck it up people, this is not something that can be fought with actual proper arguments, free health care is one of the most important things a state can and has to offer.
Also as for your ‘innovation’, I agree that funding these endeavors is universally important. Unfortunately it is all funded by the private corporations who then patent their new ‘innovation’ and prevent it from getting to anyone who cannot afford it.
All I can say is that I hope to whatever god you may pray to that you never have any illness or other tragedy befall you, leaving you unable to work, and therefore unable to pay….
Oh wait….it wouldn’t matter anymore….you’d be covered.
Yet again I will clarify early to avoid any further misunderstandings, I’m not having a go at America. Don’t get too offended when I said ‘country they stole’.
Unless you are a Native American, you’re background will go back to other countries. That’s what I meant.
This issue obviously isn’t going to resolve itself any time soon and shouldn’t be reduced to a simple nationalist debate about how great/terrible America/Britain/Canada is.
However, some simple facts from the World Health Organization are that the U.S. with its current system, spent 15.3% of its GDP in 2006 on healthcare, of which 45.8% was state funded, meaning that the U.S. government contributed 7% of GDP to healthcare yet 15% of the populace still lacked any form of insurance. In United Kingdom however, (used as a comparable example of a public healthcare system in a developed country, not for any jingoistic reasons) 8.2% of GDP was spent on healthcare and 100% of the populace, irregardless of their financial situation or nationality, were ‘insured’.
Therefore, with a marginally larger public outlay and a structured public healthcare system, the entire nation can be cared for without the need for individual spending on private insurance, therefore saving ‘the taxpayer’ money that would otherwise be committed to insurance.
This isn’t crazy ‘socialist’ argument, the figures are provided by the UN. It may be simplified greatly, but the facts are that with a public option there is significantly less GDP is committed to paying for healthcare.
Therefore, opposing public healthcare cannot be simply argued along purely fiscal lines, as it doesn’t make sense.
Architect of the National Health Service in Britain, Aneurin Bevan stated that ‘no society can legitimately call itself civilised if a sick person is denied medical aid because of lack of means.’ This argument in itself convinces me for the merits of a ‘socialized’ system.
Roche – Swiss
Glaxo – British
Novartis – Swiss
Sanofi – French
Astrazeneca – British.
I studied chemistry and I can´t recall anyone from USA making and advance in organic chemistry. Even we, south american scumbags from Argentina have produced a few many Nobels and made the first coronary by-pass and the first succesful blood transfusion. And all that with a few bucks. So why the fuck you take all the credit for the health of world population??
Read a little, just a little, of Pharma Maffia and how the third world deals with access to medicine fighting stupids licenses on hundred years ago discovered drugs.
“However, the US is hardly alone in its late payments-only 40 member states out of 191 paid on time in 2006. In fact, since each state comes up with its own excuse for meeting assessment deadlines, late payment is considered standard practice by many nations”
For more information
Contact Peggy Atherlay, UNA-USA’s Communications Director, at 212-907-1320 or email@example.com
Published by the United Nations Association of the USA
I could be a little more understanding if it was a general question, yet it was a thought out question, and a retorical one at that, directed at somebody specifically mentioned in the question to avoid this sort of confusion to try and point out their flawed opinion.
It’s a shame I wasn’t asking you. As you proved your answer would have been far more meaningful than the one I anticipated.
Lemon, it doesn’t matter where Americans come from. When they go to America they become Americans. The same way when your ancestors went to your country they became yourcountryians or whatever. Your question is implying that Americans cannot claim anything, good or bad, as being American accomplishments or failures, because Americans originated from somewhere else. That’s the same for everybody! The people everywhere in the world originated from somewhere else. We all came from the same place, somewhere else. It doesn’t mean anything!
Hell no I don’t want to pay for some fat ass bitch who in the ghetto or trailer park, or some irresponsible dumbass who spends all of his money on stupid shit instead of stuff he needs…all of you canadians and british mother fuckers…go fuck yourselves…you’d all be speaking German if it wasn’t for us. Fucktards.
These are funny and show how stupid socialized medicine really is. The comments on here from people stating that Americans are selfish are just as funny. Don’t you just love the economy in your nations? You’re broke and your free healthcare isn’t free and you will have nothing soon. Just talk to your friends in Greece. And Obamacare will do the same here. It’s great to be EU lite. And I’ve been to Europe, the healthcare sux!
I can’t believe it took until post #106 for someone to say “this isn’t universal health care.”
Of course, the burden put on insurance companies due to the fact that many wont even buy insurance until the time they need it will drive them out of business and leave nothing but a public option, so we’re on our way. Rather than just do it outright, the government is being sneaky and waiting to paint capitalists as the bad guys so they can swoop in and be our saviors. Don’t worry though, I’m sure it will be just as successful and efficient as social security and medicare.
Thank you for posting that Tea Party video and defining a large group with the acts of a small few so we can see exactly what kind of person you are.
I’ve been to Tea Party meetings and rallies and everyone I’ve met are decent, hard-working (not rich!) people that simply want to see this country stand by its core principles.
Thanks for turning up by the way , we only fought off fascistic aggression for 5 years without you. It took your government that long at the time to decide that Nazism as a force in the world was a bad thing. But then what do you expect from a peoples that took 200 years to decide that helping the whole of a reportedly equal opportunity population with basic healthcare, might be a rather nice thing to do for the good of everybody?
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Universal Health Coverage, Affordable Weed and the Pursuit of Putang. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.
@Walter I think that was Lemon’s point. None of us can sit there and say “Our country is so great, we’ve accomplished so much”. We are all a culmination of the accomplishments of humanity to this point and we’ve all built on the work of our ancestors. Truth be told i think our accomplishments are getting lamer and lamer by the generation and no one should be overly proud at this point.
I didn’t mean to imply that American’s cannot lay claim to anything good or bad, I thought I empthasized that when I said ‘I’m not saying that American’s haven’t done anything amazing’.
I guess I was just getting a little sick of listening to this one person bang on about how America is great and everyone else is shit.
This is why my comment was directed at that one person. Not everyone else.
And the fact that American’s orginated from somewhere else was me trying to remind that person that it doesn’t really matter if it was an American, African or whatever else who did something great, we’re all the same really.
I probably didn’t get that point across fully, and now it’s detracted from the actual point of this debate. It was a small side-comment that had no relevence to anyone else, I’m sorry you took it upon yourself to comment back.
we actually should probably thank the USSR more then USA about stopping the Germans. Their efforts on the eastern front decimated the German army more then you guys did.
guess what? Australia never went in recession. We didn’t go broke, like most of USA and lots of Europe. And guess what, we have a strong socialised healthcare system. Maybe you guys are just shit at economic management.
I would also like to point out that a good chunk of Canada didn’t feel the recession and the only parts that did were heavily tied into American industry. In actuality it was America that caused the recession, so I don’t really see why ProudAmerican is getting all high and mighty on that subject.
@ guzowski in post 115 You made the statement that doctors and nurses don not make a fortune. Maybe the nurses do not and many doctors don’t either. But I know several people in the medical business and they make in the upper six and into the seven digits for income. My uncle builds several million dollar “cottages” every year doctors and physicians. Sure the small town doctor doesn’t get rich but enough there are enough doctors that do exploit the system to make me sick.
Are you kidding me??! To finish medical school, individuals have to be extremely smart, in additional to accumulating tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt. Most professional athletes make more than most doctors. Which one contributes the most to society, and is owed the most from us?
@eman most doctors in NHS hospitals don’t earn that much (their income is paid by the government and can be viewed here http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/details/Default.aspx?Id=553). There are quite a few private hospitals in the UK though and those doctors and nurses are absolutely raking it in. Agreed, there are some NHS employees who screw the system, but I was mainly referring to patients who try to exploit hospitals out of medicines/treatments they don’t need and such. But yes, there are always bad people and thankfully, they tend to get caught pretty quickly.
@ pursuitofcrappyness Hey, I realize they deserve to be compensated greatly but when a physician works 3 days a week and can afford a 6million dollar “cottage” I think that is overdoing it. We complain about health care costs but what about that? It is robbery! I don’t care what athletes get paid it is up to the people who go and watch them play, they are the ones paying their paycheck. Sports is not a matter of life and death but our health is.
My comments on how much good this country does are not in relation to other countries… We just get bashed to death over shit and I get defensive… Because I am not uncaring and neither are most the people I know… So I dont say what america does well to say other countries cant compare… Just that we arent evil over here
And the comment I made about immigrants was specifically targeted towards illegals… I’m a big fan and supportor of legal immigrants… especially latinas… they got the best booties in the world… id import that shit ALL DAY!!
I hope America starts to appreciate this. In Canada, we can go to the ER or to any doctor we choose, no insurance, no problem. I had a baby, it cost me $200. I had knee surgery, it cost me nothing. I have been to the ER dozens of times since I was a child, and it didn’t cost me a cent. We pay taxes on everything, from the time we start making purchases. Eventually, when (some) Americans stop being so conspiratorial and selfish, they will realize Obama did something great for America.
I can’t believe jwp busted out the “You’d all be speaking German if it wasn’t for us”. I love how Americans (I suppose I’ll specify the obvious that I don’t mean all Americans) think that they played such a huge part in the war because they were involved in the big push at the end. The fact is Canada, Britain the Soviets and yes even the French were more responsible for the Allied victory than the US was. They just came in at the end all strong and fresh from not fighting for the first few years so they were able to kick ass easily. Got our yourselves (once again, not all of you). See how annoying it is when you have to specify that you know not all Americans think that all the time?
XS, why are you arguing over who is responsible for winning a war? None of us can sit there and say “Our country is so great, we’ve accomplished so much”. We are all a culmination of the accomplishments of humanity to this point.
After posting earlier, and reading the posts over the past few hours, it’s become harder and harder to be objective about this. I realize that the bill may not be perfect, but it helps. This debate has made me ask more questions than it answers. Are we afraid of government help? Wasn’t the government MADE to help us when we need it? Do other countries care more about our citizens than we do? These posts are SO defensive. Most arguments aren’t even about health care anymore. Can’t we see that we’re not perfect, and yet we can still strive to be? I love being an American, but if that means refusing to change in the pursuit of being even better, then…
See… this is the crap I was talking about… another person comes to have a debate about healthcare… Then goes and calls us selfish… fuck you… you are nothing but a cun+ puncher… When you say some you are implying those that oppose this bill are selfish… I oppose this bill and I’m not selfish… id let you know i was about to cum in your ass with a pop to the back of your head… now if thats not selfless I dont know what is
“Hell no I don’t want to pay for some fat ass bitch who in the ghetto or trailer park, or some irresponsible dumbass who spends all of his money on stupid shit instead of stuff he needs…all of you canadians and british mother fuckers…go fuck yourselves…you’d all be speaking German if it wasn’t for us. Fucktards.”
christina – get some facts… Was your knee surgery really free? So the doctor that performed it didnt get paid huh? So where did the money come from? Magical Canadian Elves? Or maybe you paid it in taxes and actually have NO CLUE what the real cost of your health care is… thats always a good policy… be clueless and talk out your ass
To the Canadians that are saying they paid nothing for their health care. This is a crock of shit. Unless you are below a certain amount on your income tax you pay MSP. It’s not much, but you do. I do, my family does. I pay for dental, optical, prescriptions, chiropractor, etc etc out of pocket. These things are only covered if you pay into it through your extended health benefits. And usually they don’t cover 100%.
Hospital Visits, and visits to the doctor are typically free- BUT THEY ARE NOT ALWAYS.
And those are the two things that I think SHOULD be free. All Americans should have the right to basic health.
I agree eman… I know there are folks out there that truly fell on hard and/or tragic times… But thats not the majority of them… I’ve bought children school supplies before because their parents spent all their money on alcohol and cigarettes… These are the people that we dont want to pay for… if that is selfish by christina’s and other on here standards, then so be it… I happen to think I give far more to my community than I take and that I should get full reign on how I choose to be charitable… dont need the government telling me I have to subsidize lazy and irresponsible people… seems to me they are the ones being selfish
Slim, you’re an idiot. I said, we pay taxes on EVERYTHING. From the time were born we are paying taxes. GST & PST, now HST. That covers our healthcare. So yes, my surgery cost ME nothing, my Orthopedic surgeon got paid. They file with the government through our OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan) and they get paid for their services.
Please learn a little about Canadian Politics before talking out YOUR ass.
Stu – That is true, I have Greenshield. My husband pays $50 a month to have 80% of our dental, optical and prescriptions covered. I’ve never heard of someone going to a doctors appointment and paying for it, every Canadian citizen is entitled to OHIP.
Yeah what people do not seem to realize is that whatever money the government spends is actually ours. How do they pay for all their spending expenditures? By using the money we pay in taxes. I would rather give the money straight from my pocket to those around me who need it, rather than letting the government dole it out. So sure our health system needs help but like people said earlier this health care bill is not the way to do it.
XS- I would much rather pay %13 on my everyday purchases than pay a very large lump sum of money in one shot. I’ve never gone into debt for my healthcare. I have family in the United States. They are a married couple with 3 kids, and are being crushed by their medical bills. It’s sad to see a successful family swimming in debt because one of their kids got hurt.
I was watching a program the other day about a family who had a child born with severe disabilities. She had to be in the hospital for months, her parents we paying thousands a month for insurance, their house was being forclosed because they couldn’t pay their mortgage, and their insurance was running out.
I also saw a program about a little girl with schizophrenia who had to be sent home from the hospital, against doctors wishes, because their insurance wouldn’t pay for it anymore.
That doesn’t sound like a successful healthcare system to me.
I know someone who had a great job, with great insurance. She lost her job because of the shitty economy, therefore, lost her insurance. Then, she got very very sick. She got Cancer. She tried to get insurance to pay for her treatments, but she was “uninsurable”. How very sad that someone who paid her dues, worked her whole life, will now have to sell her house, live in her families basement and go into massive amounts of debt because she got sick.
Christina.Willemina- example of people who might have to pay for a dr’s visit: people who did not pay their taxes, people who did not/do not pay their MSP, and people without a PHN, (usually immigrants that have not yet qualified)
And just because I can, for no reason whatsoever-
Fun fact: Many Dental offices actually have to chase down patients who owe them $1000′s of dollars in unpaid dental work that was not covered by their insurance
Food for thought- Has anyone at all given thought to senior citizens?! The people who fought for your freedom, helped create and turn technology into what it is today, raised you, fed you, are left paying for simple things like eye care, dentistry or in the states, basic health care.
I make that statement based on my experience. I’ve experienced poverty and I have experienced middle class. I have seen people put themselves in horrible situations time and time again and expect to get bailed out… I know people that could have insurance right now, but they are opting to spend their money elsewhere… I dont want to pay for these people… they are making the choice not to have insurance… honestly, except for single mothers most others COULD afford health care if they planned and budgetted correctly… but its just easier to buy the things they want and then have Lemon and christina feel sorry for them and hope they get free shit
So why don’t we just have the government take over the rest of our business? they can run our farms, our grocery stores, our factories. They could then give us everything for free, we wouldn’t have to work for anything because the government would provide it.
I don’t get why you people keep repeating that Cassandra is being sarcastic. That’s obvious. The only important thing there is what she’s being sarcastic about – the people that don’t support the socialized healthcare bill. She supports it. “It’s obvious she’s being sarcastic” is a waste of text.
I agree, the sad part about it is that they are so easily forgotten. Working in health care, I see a lot of elderly people who are being abused by the people at home. I’m not sure when we decided that they were such a burden.
I’m just saving for my impending cataract/glaucoma/AMD surgery/treatment that I’ll need in 50 years- Costs wackloads!
Slim, did you imply that all other countries are evil?
Because that’s what it sounded like when you said ‘except we aren’t evil over here’.
Yes, illigal immigrants are a problem, but every time you speak you seem to spout different kinds of shit.
So basically, what you people are saying is that healthcare should be free for children and the elderly?
I am assuming this is because you deem them incapable of being able to raise money to pay for their own care if they get gravely ill or injured, right?
Well what about a perfectly healthy, middle-aged single mother with seven jobs and kids who struggles to pay the rent each week, does that mean that if she happen to break both her legs accidentally meaning she can’t work for a long time, she should just man up and take responsibility and go into debt to pay for the healthcare?
Do you really think that it’s right that people in those kinds of situations should add more stress and worry to their lives over something as simple as health care?
I am shocked that a few of you think that because a country wants something as basic and normal as free health care they are lazy and ignorant people who think all of things in life should be free.
Your complete lack of intelligence bewilders me, it really does.
People get sick or injured accidentally, through no fault of their own usually. Why should they have to suffer even more just to fix something that wasn’t their fault?
@slim You’re still making a ridiculously broad assumption. You have no way of knowing that the majority of people who would benefit from universal health care don’t deserve it. You are one person and you an incapable of having that knowledge no matter your past experience.
@Christina I agree, except for when you said your surgery cost you nothing. I was simply pointing out that was a falsehood.
There’s also this little thing called public health. Someone catches something and can’t get treatment=passed on to many others. Sound familiar? Your taxes are already paying for a bunch of unnecessary crap anyways, gee why not help out the people you brag so much of ‘contributing’ to as well?
yea, thanks to us, you all speak american, and not germany!
thats what we do, kick ass and take names! like all of the countries we kicked there asses, Vietnam, Affganistan, Iraq, we kicked all there asses!
i aint paying for some ghetto ho to get 8 kids come out like a friggin octo-mom! screw dat shit!
do you know how much money it costs to chase Obama binladen ? How about how much a fuckin smart bomb is? That shit is expensive! Where is the money gonna come from?
All these idots with their comunist stupid free healthcare is bullshit! Canada, hahahahah, i dont even know where in europe argentinia is , but it sounds like shit! hahaha
if you are to stupid to save yur money in case you get a borken arm or fall off yur motercycle , then to bad stupid
in united states we r about 4 things
write to bear arms (that means we have guns bitch!)
no fuckin comunists! meaning fuck off healthcare for everyone!
and america fuck ya
Give Slim a break he has some pretty good thoughts considering he is pry smoking a jay and typing at the same time lol.
@ lemon you keep missing the point the government should just start regulating the hospitals, drug companies, and the insurance companies. Keep these companies from charging outrageous prices. It would work just as well as the current plan is going to.
Where money is involved you’ve got little hope of getting any control over it. As long as they can get away with charging prices like they do, they will.
Now they can’t.
I don’t see why you’re not happy about that.
spoken like a true comunist lemon
now that you mention it, free healthcare doesn’t sound so bad…
im not sure if they are chasing osama, but i know wear spending a lot of money on bombs in affganistan, and such as iraq, and other places….
maybe if we drop a few less bombs we can get some spare cash for some healthcare
wheel keep bombin the shit out of them, dont get me wrong, we gotta let them no who the boss’s is!
is usa is so bad, how could we invent shit like Doritos?
how come mcdonalds is EVERYWHERE?
we need to bring back george bush!
both of them, that would be awesome!
i mean seriously, do you think the Bushes would let everyone get healthcare?
i dont think so
everybody loves america
USA USA USA
Obama isnt even american, isnt that funny! an unamerican is bringing in free healthcare….hmmmmm, think about it
@ Lemon LOL
@ Mypoint I know greed is everywhere it is sad. Yet look at Bill Gates he donated over 45 billion to charities so there are still a few good rich people. I think a lot of it boils down to the common person knowing how to properly handle their finances. Maybe the government should put more focus on educating school students about personal finances. Also we need more corporations to help provide health care, when they do that the system works quite well.
I just wanna say (although it might’ve been said already) as a Canadian, I am appalled by the fact that many Americans are so repulsed by socialized health care! I have never lived with out it, and for that I am thankful to be a Canadian! I thinks its a whole lot easier to pay my taxes and in turn recieve “free” health care than to have an emergency surgery (like I did last year when my appendix ruptured) and get a huge bill for it.
I have a funny feeling iddjit is trying to be satirical and Slim, you make me want to burn my flag and move to Canada. I don’t give two shits about who you know or what you’ve experienced or how people live it up with “extravagances” – health care is a basic, human necessity. The pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies, and licensed physicians and surgeons have gotten too unruly and we need reform like this so that the average American can survive.
I’m loosing my health insurance two years earlier than I should have because they changed their minds on when a dependent should be done with college. I attend 18 credit hours a week, and work part time. I drive a used car that is paid off, I pay my bills, and I abstain from trips and “extravagances” but you mean to tell me that because I won’t be able to afford my own insurance right now that I am a lowlife who doesn’t deserve basic preventative care? I really hope you get an inoperable brain tumor.
Well for a country that backs to the enth degree the thousands of young men and women they send off to their deaths on a regular basis, I would have thought they would have been all for the universal healthcare?
Oh thats right, with all the poor fighting for the military, the only people left behind in the US are the high middle income and power earners who can actually afford to pay for treatment.
It’s funny how the man (or woman) who lives on the bad side of town is held high enough in your regard to clean your toilets or tend to your gardens, but isn’t worth the tax dollars you pay in case he gets sick? The hypocrisy that is spewed out of America reeks, and you wonder why the rest of the world laughs when you appoint geese like Bush for leaders.
Yeah you’re right. The US comes to the rescue, but often are they the catalyst for the conflict in the first place? No wonder half the middle east hates the US when your government spent the better half of 80′s selling arms to Iraq and Iran to blow the shit out of each other with, and then you wonder why you’re the target of terrorist attacks when you invade sovereign nations…
I have been trying to make similiar points for around 3 hours now I think. Slim won’t listen.
He just says something else about his life and how he knows best because he donates to a couple of charities and spent his money well in his youth.
the government should fix our education system first… that would solve a lot of our issues
China and europe for technology development? seriously… try american and japan… europe has brought a lot of advancements, but not recently in the technology field and china manufactures like crazy, but is severely behind in innovation
An issue that divides people almost as definitively as whether or not you like black jelly beans. Comments were too long, forgive me if I’m re-hashing but was their this much of a stink when Obama was bailing out the banks? I think it’s interesting that when rich white dudes loose everyone’s $$$ then the solution is to give them more, but when sick people that need a slice of the pie hold out their hands they get spat on…
It’s easy to say what you will about universal health care until you get sick and need it.
Here in Europe, people would get their facts straight before shouting “SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!!!!”
Do you know how much money you spend on nothing now, America? How risk-pooling is a great idea? How a monopsony situation is ideal, whereas the oligopoly you have now is perhaps the worst solution imaginable.
Do you know that we Danes get the best care there is, have free choice of doctor and hospital and do NOT wait for important surgery? And 30 days tops for non-acute surgeries? And if that guarantee can’t be fulfilled, we can choose whichever private hospital we like? (On day 1, not day 30).
And… all this is cheaper for everyone than for even the best insured in America. Yes, it is possible.
fine, screw it… Access to healthcare for everyone, are you happy?
I’ve done some research, and it isn’t such a bad thing, I guess…
I’m just worried that somehow this is going to be a bad thing, letting those who are sick see a doctor….
I’m just worried that the government is getting “too involved” in my life, and it scares me!
I’m just watching the trailer for some Michael Moore movie, and it has me feeling all squishy inside… I can’t explain it
Oh yea, and zoned, Al Gore (American) invented the internet, yea, thats right, the internet you are on right now…. He also invented the question mark…. What invention does China or Europe have to say about that?
Chinese Food? (ok, that is a good one, but try and name another)
@ CK I hope our system works that well because we really do not have much of a choice anymore. It seems though that whenever our government sticks its nose into something it only makes things worse not better.
Don’t forget Manbearpig Iddjit!
I believe that was one of Al Gores too.
And yea, I see your point Eman, but there are always loads of important issues – governments only seem to be able to deal with them with a few years between though, so unless Obama is actually the super-jesus everyone was hoping he would be, it may be a while before another major reform of anything happens.
I’m pretty sure it won’t. But it’ll be an improvement. Unfortunately, America isn’t educated enough to realize that only the insurers and people who have an interest in the ‘working class’ (= 90 % of the population) living in fear.
But eman, when is it okay for the government to interfere? Weren’t you all upset when Katrina happened and your Government didn’t react on the spot? In my eyes both situations are disasters – one has just taken a little longer to create.
you also say hypocricy… like just because I dont agree with socialized medicine that I agree with our foreign policy… you realize I dont even get a choice in my president right? I live in Washington State… the majority here are democrats… this states electoral votes go to the dmeocratic canidate every election… So I have very little say in our foreign policies… so lets try and stick to one issue
as for soldiers… lump them in with kids and seniors… we dont take care of our vets well enough in this country and that is a shame
Republicans in the United States are extremely outspoken and radical, therefore it is easy to stereotype the entire country based on that. I’m American, I know. I know plenty of people who support universal health care, myself being one of them, however, I also know a lot of people who blindly say that universal health care is SOCIALISM, AND SOCIAL IZZZZ BADZZZZZZZZZ. Americans are just afraid of being socialist, and God forbid, changing and admitting we have been wrong!
@ Mypoint No I wasn’t upset they were not prepared for such a disaster so it took them some time to react. Also if everyone would have helped each other out instead of waiting for handouts things would have worked much better. Anyways that could be a whole different discussion. It isn’t about when a government interferes but how they do it. We could have just immediately sent millions of dollars to New Orleans but that would have been useless. The city needed people to help them not money (well so they did need some money).
I have joked about “red” being the new “black” in various debates regarding American politics .
But again: it hasn’t proven to be the solution as victims were to rely on other victims? New Orleans is still in a terrible state (at least for the poor)? Or at least that is what we are being told across the pond.
No others from the rest of the U.S. needed to pitch in and help (and many did). Orleans was never good for the poor, so nothing has changed. I have many family & friends that helped with the rebuilding of homes and they said the peoples homes they were rebuilding just stood and watched. The people never helped and acted as though they deserved hand outs. That is just some peoples opinions but I find it sickening. I like to help those who help themselves.
I can agree with eman, there are a lot of people who are happy to just sit back and let other people do the hard work, however, you cannot say ‘I don’t want to pay a tax for these people to get free health care’ because that’s the kind of attitude that previously stopped an entire group of people from being able to get the healthcare that they really needed, hardworking decent people.
Essentially, you & slim, and others from what I can tell, weren’t happy about universal healthcare because you were judging a mass of people on the few slackers who might not “deserve” the free care.
Remember how you weren’t happy when people started judging the whole of America because of a few idiots? It’s the same thing.
You may have just proven that you have never experienced a true disaster, otherwise you wouldn’t have disregarded the fact that people may be numb when having lost everything. And that would also explain the “thumbs down” on the health care bill?
Yanno, I’m a big fan of this website. Stop by a few times a week. Not a big fan of the comments. Never have been. It’s usually just a bunch of tools arguing about grammar or my fellow countrymen embarrassing me, both of which I can’t stand.
So I am going to start off by saying to these people that I hate you. I hate you with every fiber of my being. I hate you like I hate FOX News. I hate you with the same fiery passion with which I hate the south and fat people. And I hope you get AIDs, but don’t die, but instead just continue to build up medical bills you can’t pay, live in shit, and beg for death.
And I strongly support the health care bill. And yes, I know that it will go to support people that don’t have jobs. Who cares? In my personal opinion, I think poor people would suck a whole lot less if they weren’t sick. If nothing else, it’d be one less thing to complain about. And then they can spend their money on other things. Sure, maybe some of them would buy drugs, but it also opens up the giant window of opportunity for improving other aspects of their lives. And maybe it’d help fund an abortion or two, but the alternative to the less fortunate having abortions is reproduction. Think about that for a minute.
And what exactly do health care bashers know about the health care bill? Do you know what it means for you? I believe some do. If you don’t, I beckon you to visit the following website and find out.
Myself and my husband are 23 and childless. We live in Seattle, WA and our combined income is more than $15,000 higher than the median household income in the area. Our health care is covered by our employers, will stay that way, and we will not have to pay any more taxes than we already do.
And even if we did have to pay a little more, who cares? It solves a bigger problem and would increase the overall standard of living in our country. So many people could benefit with very little cost to you personally.
I, as well as the majority of people in my country, voted for Barack Attack knowing that one of his major goals was health care reform. We applauded his speeches. Maybe even cried a little. I did, like a little bitch. I still stand behind him. Don’t get me wrong. I LOVE my fuckin’ country. But the time for change is now. End rant.
i am 26, single, barely make rent, and pay for a large portion of my health insurance. i enjoy my job enough, and will probably get somewhere better in life fairly soon, but that’s just where i am right now.
and i still want everyone to have it. it matters. a lot.
Well, #267, you’re such a troll. And maybe this health care plan benefits you, but really it seems that it benefits you by not affecting you…What about my father who has Type 1 Diabetes (not type 2 from obesity) who has been told by all his doctors that “if the health care plan passes, I’m retiring.” He has a hard enough time getting his diabetes supplies and is disabled due to diabetic complications. So, now he’s going to have to wait forever to see these doctors he DESPERATELY needs to see. He voted as a Democrat mostly until Barrack Obama came around. I fear for my father’s health. He CAN’T work. He’s not just some lazy asshole who’s ripping off the gov’t for all they’re worth, he wants to work. I could hear the sadness in his voice when he told me the health care bill passed. Ask someone from Canada how they feel about this. Ask someone from Germany. It sucks! Once it starts affecting you negatively, maybe you’ll start seeing through Obama like I do.
Oh my, how it annoys me how people who can’t afford health insurance cannot get good health care. It also annoys me how paying my taxes means that my rubbish gets taken away. I would rather live in filth than pay a couple of quid to have the recyclable s**te be taken away. What a horrible thing. ‘Free’ health care that I use is just absolutely awful. It upsets me so much that I pay about £5 a per week of my annual pay. I mean when I’m a little bit in need of immediate bit of care and in A+E I feel hard done by. People taking care of me when I am bleeding to death.. What has the world come to!!! Such an unusual concept humanity is!!!
Thanks for noticing how I not-so-slyly brought world politics into my post. I’m about as subtle as a sledgehammer. Anyway, therein lies the point I make. The attitude from most of the people involved in this debate on universal healthcare is not unlike their approach to politics on the world stage. Selfish and unaccommodating.
Would you support a system if one of your siblings was ill and couldn’t afford the desperately required the care that you would have ordinarily would have had to pay for under your current system? I’ve asked most Americans that question that share your opinion and deadset, I think the US would win the every gold in the London Olympics in Gymnastics with all those backflips I saw.
Just seems strange how pro-American (and pro-Christian might I add!) love-thy-neighbour patriotism spewed out by the Republican party would vehemently refute such a system.
How is it the fault of a new reformation of the health system in America that doctors are retiring?
Unfortunately, there are bad situations regardless of whatever the healthcare is like in any country.
People from Cananda have commented on this post and are all for it. There has also been European input and it’s all praising the the healthcare bill.
I think you’ll find that your fathers situation was pre-existing and is no fault of the new healthcare bill.
If the doctors retire, that is their choice and not the fault of a new bill.
Holy shit. I agree with BH. I just learned more about healthcare here than anywhere else.
… But I don’t really get how the topic went from the healthcare bill to organic chemistry to the origin of Americans.
Yay for only knowing that the new President is black, and has a dog. !
Dear 270: I’m sorry, I didn’t realize your dad was more important than everyone else in the country’s dad. Oh wait, he’s not. Everyone knows a sick someone special, and everyone’s sick someone special deserves to be taken care of. So I say we all get in line. If a longer wait is the biggest complaint for taking care of all of our people and saving a lot of lives, then there shouldn’t really be a problem at all.
PS. The doctors aren’t retiring. They’re whining. I have an older cousin who’s a doctor. You should see her cry baby facebook comments about the health care bill. But guess what? She’s still gonna be stinkin’ rich and she’s not going anywhere.
In ’270.samhainophilia’s defence, it is very easily (and cheaply) treated with proper healthcare.. Particularly that which is free (or the prescription at a reduced cost). And by the way if there is ‘untreated’ diabetes type 1 it can lead to blindness. I hate to use my MCBHC on this subject but never the less ‘sh*t happens’. The NHS is a good idea that actualy works. People argue against it, however it means that it treats every one no matter what class of citizen they are. If people prefer private treatment, then so be it. They have that option.
There are always those [loud mouthed, paranoid, selfish] people who are terrified of change. For every big milestone of progress, there have been outcries of “Socialism!! Facism!!”
…But does anyone remember those people? Are there ever monuments built to those who were on the wrong side of history? No. The people we remember are Franklin Roosevelt, Lyndon Johnson, and as time goes on, Barack Obama.
This bill will work. And the parts that don’t will be fixed. And, God willing, some day we’ll finally get to a single payer system.
And, though it will take a while, those loud mouthed people will learn to shut the hell up, except when the doctor that EVERYONE gets to see tells them to open up and say “Aaaah.”
Well it seems like everyone is throwing in their own personal story so I’ll join in.
I come from a working-class background. My parents are dairy farmers and aren’t in a position to support me financially while I’m studying to become a lawyer. But that’s okay, because even though I don’t earn much at this point in my life, I manage my money wisely and I get by. I even manage to fit in 8 hours per week of volunteer work to help out those less fortunate than myself.
However, I suffer from a variety of chronic health problems. Fortunately, I live in Australia, and I can get x-rays, ultrasounds, blood tests and doctor visits for free, and prescription medications for next to nothing.
I have never had a problem with not being able to see a doctor, or having to wait “forever” to see one, especially if I “desperately” needed to see one. When I call to make an appointment, I can usually get one on the same day or the next day. At best, I got an appointment two hours after I called.
I, like slimjayz, am really annoyed by people who don’t manage their money wisely. However, I think it’s important to recognise that there are plenty of people who are forced to rely on the healthcare system more than others and that often this can be unpredictable. I think that having a better level of health across the board is something worth investing in.
Wow you people have been busy today, love your passion, and I missed it all!
I can’t read it all cos I can’t be fucked, but I get the general argument.
As someone who works in healthcare in Australia, yeah I could really get going, but I won’t.
Couple of things though… gotta love the incongruous lol that the malteaser throws in the middle of all this. It sticks out like dogs balls.
And Mr Purple Lips… I love that too. I have think of a way to incorporate that into my everyday talk.
Slim, perhaps you should reconsider giving money to charities who support starving people in impoverished African nations.
They’re too stupid to pull their respective countries from the grips of greed and economic despondency, right?
Stop being a tight ass hypocrite. The foundation of the anti-healthcare bill resides in greed and ignorance.
I live in Alberta, Canada and one evening I got into a fairly bad car accident (I hit a deer at about 110km, my car was compeltely smashing and the airbags went off). Later that night I was having terrible chest pains which lead to me hardly being able to breathe. My Dad drove me to the hospital at 11 at night, we sat for maybe 30 minutes in the waiting room until I was admitted. A nurse took me into the ER hooked me up to heart monitors and 5 minutes later a doctor came in read everything and ask some questions. He gave me some medication and by about midnight my dad was driving me home. The only reason I opened my wallet was to give my drivers licsense and Alberta healthcare card, not a penny was spent. The US is finally taking a step in the right direction, this quote might be of some interest to Americans, “For every person who dies in a terrorist attack globally, 58 people in the US die due to lack of health care.”
The reason why semi-privatized healthcare systems, such as what we have in Australia, is that everyone gets healthcare. It’s a right we get for living in this country.
For us, private health insurance is an optional extra; a luxury. By having private health insurance – and thus taking pressure off the government systems, you are given a tax exemption on your mandatory Medicare levy.
At present, we too are having a reshuffle of our health care system – it is by no means perfect. The proposed reshuffle should give more control to the federal government, taking it away from the states, and giving Australia a more unified, consistent healthcare system, improving upon an already passable system.
About 8 years ago my wife was diagnosed w/ breast cancer. After cti, fna, numerous Drs. visits and other tests + a mastectomy surgery & 5 days in hospital we paid=0. (She’s now all clear – thanks for asking).
About 4 years ago I accidentally reversed over our old cat. When we got him to the vets & I told the receptionist that this was an emergency the first question I was asked was “How are you going to pay for this consultation?” We paid ~$500 to have the cat euthanaised.
Although Medicare doesn’t always work I know which healthcare system I’d rather live with.
When i was in the States i saw first hand what kind of campaigns the republicans were running to oppose Obama. Accusing him of being a communist (have they ever cared to read what communism is about?).
I was shocked and frightened to learn about this kind of political behavior , i kind of thought the south park guys were exagorating with their satire but IRL it’s even worse.
I come from a country with good health care and they call us socialists or even communist. But why is private ownership and private business supported by our government then ?
Health care is not about freeloaders it is about solidarity.
@301 – I’m also Australian, and I had a broken arm when I was younger that needed pretty drastic surgery. My parents paid nothing out of pocket for it, other than what they’d already contributed towards their taxes and the cost of driving to and from the hospital.
On the other hand, our cat was bitten by a red-bellied black snake in about 2003 and we had to pay $600 for antivenene. I guess Medicare isn’t really set up for non-humans.
And on a more general note… I guess I’m confused by all the political jockeying over what most countries consider to be a basic human right.
at least in other countries because our healthcare is free, most of us can afford to look after our pets.
Damn, imagine tripping over your cat and having to pay the bill to fix you and the cat.
Bad times indeed.
The scary thing is thinking about how many ignorant people make up the population of the richest and most influential (these two traits not being mutually exclusive) country in the world.
Slimjayz, you haven’t been reading the right books. Try John Perkins or even Noam Chomsky. You think the USA has given “blood, sweat and tears” for other countries?? Do you have ANY idea how much “blood, sweat and tears” US foreign policy has CAUSED in other countries? God, you are a piece of work.
I stopped reading roughly at comment 200 (my eyes were burning) but I get the general idea. I do not see why all Americans should not be treated equal? During the Haitian Earthquake, millions of dollars of what could have been put towards the problems in our own country was sent to people that did not expect their house to fall on them. I feel bad for them but there are kids in my child’s school that cannot afford clothes that fit them, yet some want to a be angry that they can now go to the doctor? What makes my child any different than Paris Hilton’s dog?
Why does America worry so much about others problems when there is so much wrong here?
I used to live in the US but left for Ireland over 5 years ago and I have to say I prefer the European model when it comes to health care.
In the US, I didn’t find doctors to be all that compassionate. I have had some interesting visits to doctors. I remember getting a SMAC (serious blood test) test 12 years ago and was told the test was fine except for numbers that were a little high because of certain foods I have eaten (found out recently I needed to stay away from these certain types food). Even though the tests were fine, a doctor comes up to me and tells me that I need to have my gall bladder out. He asks me if I have insurance I say no. So he wants me to sign up right there(the insurance, how handy). I declined it. So, a year later I get a call from one of the doctors who tells me that they have been looking at the test again and told me that I might have Hep B or C! I was seriously pissed! I never went back to this clinic. Before the test I felt I was called back to the clinic a lot…spending more money…to have check ups that I now see as useless. I have since had the SMAC test in France (where I presently live) and the test came out fine except that I have a thyroid problem. So the doctors in the US treating me were less than ethical. I was really disliking doctors as a whole. I didn’t trust them until I moved to Europe.
Before leaving for Ireland I wanted a doctor to see this cyst I had and to see if I could get it removed. First of all it was an expensive office visit. This doctor looked at me, asked me if I had insurance….I said no! He then asked me how I was going to pay for it. Then in the same conversation asks me if I had a full physical… this would be seriously expensive without insurance, wouldn’t it? He proceed to make an appt for me (I would cancel before going to Ireland) and also told me that my meeting with a surgeon would be in 3 months (this was just looking at it). After living in Ireland for a while I still wanted this cyst removed. I got a health card as I wasn’t making enough money to pay for my own insurance. I went to see my doctor and surgeon within a week and went into surgery just as quick.
In the US I also had insurance at one time through my work….it was useless and expensive. I will say I prefer the way the European system is. I live in France (one of the best systems in the world)now and find the system here is very good. Health care is not free it gets taken out through the taxes you pay.
France has an extremely good health care system, I would have mentioned it earlier if I was not fearful of having unnecessary abuse hurled at me by iddjit or someone.
America as a whole seems to feel like they need to stick their fingers in everyone’s pies, I’m not sure why. Maybe they’re just trying to help or get more money/oil/etc.
But at least this bill is a sign of them starting to care more for their own people, so the futures bright. They futures yellow.
Since you asked…. I happen to be German, and the system TOTALLY sucks.
The other day my gyn asked me to get my rubella titer tested, just in case I’d accidentally get pregnant sometime soon. Then I found out I’d have to pay for that myself. 25€… the entire day all I did was tell everyone I know how annoyed I was at having to pay so much just to get tested for some stupid antibody. Then I realized that this was the first time I ever had to pay anything extra, including an emergency surgery, the 3 month I spent in the hospital after an accident I had when I was 12 and years of therapy after being abused as a child. How stupid of my parents (who were not at fault for either) to not start saving money for all this when I was born.
It’s also unbelievable that my step-father dares to only be a hard working machinist, supporting 4 children and his mother. When he had those 2 strokes at the age of 39 in France they probably should just have let him die instead of operating on the spot and then flying him out to Germany on a helicopter to recover with his family and friends nearby.
Where was I? ahhh right, german health care totally sucks.
On a serious note, obviously our system isn’t perfect either. But I don’t see what this whole waiting issue is about. If you have a problem that needs immediate attention you WILL get to see a doctor right away. Trust me, I have experienced this more than just once. And if you come up with a bad fever or something but don’t have an appointment you just go to the doctors office and wait. I never had to wait much more than 1h and I think that’s reasonable. If you’re sick enough to need a doctor you won’t have any other plans and if you’re too sick to sit there they won’t make you wait.
Also, it puzzles me a bit that you are all so terrified of this “socialist” health care plan. Do you realize that the only thing pure capitalism aims for is to make a tiny elite disgustingly rich and everyone else can go fuck themselves? How does that go well with democracy, freedom and equal opportunities? That’s where the government is supposed to regulate things a bit. No need to call everyone a communist! And this comes from a citizen of a country that has just been reunited with its communist counterpart 20 years ago. Stop being so paranoid!
The health care bill requires all U.S. citizens to pay for insurance (either private or the public option). There is no cap on insurance premiums that can be charged. This is primed to end up in disaster, because the root of the health care problem in the U.S. currently is gouging by insurance companies.
Also, it is arguably unconstitutional to force every citizen to purchase health insurance against their will. If you’re going to give free universal health care, it had better be free* (*paid for by the taxes of working U.S. citizens).
I really do not understand people who are against universal healthcare. I live in a country that has universal healthcare and I have been a tax payer for nearly 15 years and in all honesty it has never bothered me to know that some of my tax money funds this.
Really, I just don’t get it. I’ve seen the argument that some people don’t like the government deciding where their money goes and who it helps but… with or without the healthcare bill they’ve always done that anyway! And really, if you don’t like the government deciding where your tax money should go then perhaps you’d be better suited living in the forest where you can be king of the squirrels.
But let’s not forget that this bill will also be of benefit to the people who are closest to the individuals who oppose it.
Universal healthcare benefits everyone and I think in 2010 it’s about time America caught up to what most of the world has already known for decades.
many americans have a skewed sense of what freedom is. sure, you can have freedom to speak freely, freedom to own a gun, freedom to choose your religion.
however, none of these liberties count for shit if you’ve got a life-threatening illness but you can’t afford the surgery.
it’s amusing how proud americans are of their country, claiming it’s the freest place in the world, yet there are single mothers who have to chose between feeding their kids, paying rent, and paying for insurance
Someone accused the Republicans of running campaigns against Obama, calling communist and socialist. That is true but why don’t you show the other side? The Democrats ran a nationwide campaign recently against Virginia Governor Bob McDonnell. Know what it was about? They said he was communist!! get your facts straight because it goes both ways!! When the Republicans were trying to reform Social Security the Democrats were calling foul. it does not matter what side you are on somebody is going to call you bad names. Right know it is the Republicans turn, when we have a Republican Pres. it will be the Democrats turn.
Holy shit there’s a lot of comments here. Some people need to take an economics class and learn what socialized health care would actually do to the US economy. I specify US because I’m sick of all the people here not from the US claiming that because socialized healthcare works for them that it should work for us. You’re wrong, please stop.
I’m an American who is not opposed to universal healthcare at all. I’m a single mother with a full time job who cannot afford insurance (and my employer does NOT provide it). Which also means I cannot afford to go to the doctor when I’m ill. Sure, there are plenty of lazy fuckers out there taking advantage of the taxes the rest of us pay but in my line of work, I see people everyday who are disabled and physically unable to work. I hope our new healthcare system works as well for us as the UK’s health system works for them.
no one understands incentives here. If everyone has free insurance, they have no incentive to shop for the best health option. When they don’t shop, the prices go up….If all the lower class people get free things, they have no incentive to make more money or work harder…incentives people, incentives
@howdy: are you serious? the same thing could be levied at education, do you think privatizing the education system would be a good idea?
how is getting offering free, universal healthcare going to stop incentives to earn money and work harder? there’s other things in the world to buy other than healthcare- something which should be a basic human right in this age. similarly, having a health population means that people CAN earn work harder and earn money, so everyone benefits. these are the kind of things that pushed through socialized healthcare in Europe decades ago, unfortunately America never caught up
i want my free government blow jobs… if these lazy fucks get free insurance I should get like a blow job allowance… head over to the government strip club/gloryhole and give the government back some of my cheese
@tuff86 (and any others who stated something similar to this)
“America, no doubt, has the best health care in the world, why should we completely change that?”
I don’t know why so many American’s still continue to believe this, when it is a well known fact that you are ranked very low in the World Health Organization’s ranking of the world’s heath systems. You are in fact ranked 37th. Not first.
Market-based solutions to provide a basic safety net for lower income workers and the structurally unemployed? Sounds like communism to me.
@qwerty: Correction; they’re no.1 or near it when it comes to the maximum possible standard of care available on the system. They only drop to 2nd and 3rd world levels when it comes to aggregated figures which don’t focus on care available only to the mega rich. And who cares about the poor? Communist!
you talk about buying healthcare like buying a new tv or computer.
Incentives to earn money are the luxuries in life, should it really be a luxury to be able to get illnesses treated or broken bones fixed?
I’m looking at how much anger and division this bill has created and loath that the argument has not really addressed the reason behind the massive costs of health care in america. Corporate greed.
As an Australian I hate how we have adopted so much of the Individualist mentality of other countries. Privatisation of public utilities, public transport. Commercialisation of health care and sports.
It seems to me that a lot of these things performed better when they were not profit driven. Investment by the private sector does drive innovation. However it’s at the cost of the community, the environment and individual happiness. Just so that you can have a PS3 and bluray to play on the monolithic TV in the middle of your McMansion while scoffing down your take away food.
Stop for a minute and think about what really satisfies you. Is it caring for for that 24 y.o girl who fell off her push bike and then got hit by a car on the way to bang her married boss or getting your favorite movie on yet another bloody format?
@howdy: It’s because you system sucks balls. I hope you lose your job and get sick.
@slimjayz: I dont care how much charity you do but equating healthcare to a blow job is fucked up. I know getting blown helps my migraines but not the panacea we all hope for.
@duncan: are you happy at the billions of dollars the military siphons from the U.S. budget to fight polititians wars for them?
looks like coruption of the system to me.
@Britishhobo: love you man.
before i go. i’m in the health care system, a card carrying socialist, and a downshifter. Have a nice day
I think you’ll find that most things in life that involve a service of some sort are money driven and therefore will always be flawed and corrupt. However, we can improve them a bit but we’ll never perfect them. That’s why slight improvements like this are always a bit exciting.
I am a poor, Type 1 Diabetic single-father college student. And I am proud to be an American.
The health-care debate is not as simple as some make it out to be. There is no question that helping others is a good thing. I do as much of it as I can. The problem with Universal Health Care in the US is that it goes against the founding principles of our Republic (yes, Republic, not Democracy; it is a bit of both, actually). It is not and should not be the responsibility of the government to care for the people. The government is here to protect our rights, not provide them. It is not an equalizer.
Call me what you will, but I am against Universal Health Care, Social Security, Welfare, etc. This is not out of a lack of caring for those who honestly cannot provide what they need; but their needs are not the government’s concern. A human right is not the same as a legal right. Charities can support many of these individuals, and are much more efficient than the government. ALL of the social programs go against what this nation was founded on. The government should protect us from being taken advantage of (aka, dropping coverage), but not provide that for us (or force us to purchase it, as this bill does). America has always been a nation of personal responsibility, and those responsibilities should never be foisted on another; this is part of what our government is supposed to protect us from, not force on us itself.
It is the attitude of personal responsibility that made America great. That isn’t to say that more Socialized nations aren’t great; some are, and that’s fantastic. But that’s not America. In America, you should be able to do whatever you want, as long as it does not infringe on someone else’s rights. And they should not be able to do anything that infringes on your own.
I just got tired of reading the same shit ripostes over and over again. Let me lay it out for you all right now:
If you think a healthcare bill is anything but beneficial to the entire country, you’re a bloody fucking idiot. the entire WORLD has societal classes, and they all have healthcare and all countries that have it don’t seem to give a shit about paying for it. If you think it’s socialist, you’re even more idiotic. Socialism requires that everyone is equal in ALL aspects of life. Adding a few dollars every two weeks to taxes that can benefit EVERYONE INCLUDING YOUR STUPID SELF is far from socialist. If you think poor people are just sucking up your money so they can get help, you deserve to be drowned. I’d love to see how much you hate the healthcare system when you’re in an extreme medical crisis, get fixed up and then spend the rest of your life paying off an exhorbitant bill. Yeah, you getting sick is your own responsibility, but if you’re paying taxes for that healthcare, you’ve TAKEN that responsibility into your own hands. YOU CONTRIBUTE. JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE.
Another thing that makes me laugh is how everyone seems to think the poor will take advantage and use the money for shit like drugs or whatever. Are you stupid? You don’t get MONEY. You get a card that they swipe and approve. The insurance companies pay for it. And guess what? Those insurance companies get grants from the government to compensate. Is it really that hard to think past your greedy, selfish noses? Wake up and smell 1957 for fuck’s sake.
KaynDarks, I’m curious, do you think that you will be able to get/afford care for yourself, or your child if you are to lose your job due to downsizing, or some other factor out of your control?
What will you do when you can’t get your insulin? Or your child gets sick?
I know if I was a private health insurance company, I wouldn’t insure you! You are a liability! I would want healthy people who will pay, and not use their insurance…..
I know its a “what if” but it isn’t too far fetched of an idea….
Its comical how against universal health care some people are, but have no qualms about spending exponential amounts more on war….. I ain’t a hippy, but just find it funny that you would rather blow the shit out of some foreigner, rather than care for your own people…..
Yknow, everytime I hear an american use the constitution and its (stupid, ridiculous, illogical) ammendments, I respond by saying the following:
I wish the constitution stated that all americans have the right to shoot themselves in the face at any point in their lives. considering often you run to your constitution bitching about your rights and what’s coming to them, I’m sure many of them would be wiped out instantly and the world would be a better place.
If you think that’s a plausible rebuttal, you should jump off a bridge right now.
And the fact that you all use the constitution strictly to determine what is and isn’t your right just proves how fucked up that country is. You need a piece of paper written by drunken fascists to tell you what’s right and what’s wrong? A piece of paper made of hemp, which comes from marijuana, which your government spend upwards of 800 MILLION dollars annually to combat?
Jesus christ the vast majority are so stupid it hurts to hear you talk. I feel so bad for the GOOD people among you, that they have to spend their lives in such ludicrous company.
You strike me a Socialist. Good for you. But let me point out a few things:
1) The whole ‘everyone contributes’ thing. Not true. Only those with money contribute. And the ones with more contribute more. Forcing someone to be charitable isn’t right. Get over it.
2) The Constitution is the foundation for this country. It is what made this country great. It certainly has it’s problems, but it’s better than Socialism. That’s an opinion. It can’t be proven either way.
3) The founders were not fascists. Maybe you should actually read up on who they were. Unless Socialism is against reading? Oh wait, that’s it’s brother Communism. My bad.
4) You certainly have the right to think I’m an idiot. And I have the right to think you’re raging moron. Because you are. This is the internet, it doesn’t really matter. But for me, at least, the right to say it is guaranteed by that piece of paper you so despise.
If such were to happen, I would go to charities and whatnot. If I couldn’t be helped, I would die. Or my son would. People should not be forced to help us survive. It’s just as morally wrong to force them as for them not to.
Also, the 3/5s compromise was about the census, to determine population for the House of Representatives. Slavery was one of the problems with the Constitution; one of the few.
Good luck with the “charities and whatnot” when your foot falls off dude….
I guess all those that now have no access to healthcare just haven’t heard of these charities and whatnot….?
I feel for your son, who had no choice to be born, into a “poor single father” family….I hope he finds someone to take care of him when you get too sick to do it yourself….I’m sure someone will take him…..
Your short sightedness is sad….
This EVIL socialist healthcare system you despise will benefit you! It blows my mind that you have probably NEVER seen any of these “horrible socialist” countries, like Canada, Australia, etc….But have been brainwashed that they have to be shitholes, because they offer medical care for their people…
Believe me, you WILL change your mind if God forbid, you end up with even less money than you have now….Miss a few insulin shots, and then what?
Who cares, if you are too sick, too bad, just die…..
It’s not a matter of who cares or doesn’t care. I KNOW that this healthcare will benefit me. I realize that some nations make socialism work. But I don’t want it. There are reasons that I don’t want it. I have outlined them.
And no, my mind won’t change. I’ve been in tough situations, with thousands of dollars of medical bills stacked up. I got through that with some charity and a lot of work. And my mind is still made up.
I have my own insurance, so it wont benefit me… and mandating people get insurance could be unconstitutional… I know a lot of my posts have been missed since there are hundreds of comments… But I am not opposed to health care for all… just didnt like how a number of things were done in this bill… I think if you are going to fix something, do it better than this crap bill… Anyways I enjoy playing devils advocate…
Just an FYI, you have a 1 in 5 chance of having a LEA (Lower-Extremity Amputation) by the time you reach 65…..Maybe you’ll be a lucky one, and not lose a foot…..Or feet….
Or, if you are unlucky, you will lose both feet while you are still young, and caring for your son….. Hopefully you will get a job that allows you to continue working after you are released from hospital from the double amputation…..
I am perplexed that you like “charity” or “free money”, but are opposed to the government providing you with the thing$ you are getting from your charitie$????
Are you serious that universal healthcare will make you a socialist state???
What about Welfare, Food Stamps, social security, I can go on and on with other “socialist” whatnots that your country currently provides……
I feel sorry sounding like such an insensitive fuck, making you contemplate what your illness may do to you, and how this will affect your young child, but I mean no harm, I just want you to see the light. I hope you are one of the “lucky” ones, and have very few hospital visits for your diabetes
I know full well what my disease will likely do to me. And if I die before my son hits 18, he will go to his addict mother. If you read my previous posts, you should know that I am also against those social programs. One program does not make us a socialist state… but we have far more than one. We aren’t there yet, but we get constantly closer.
The difference between Charity and government hand outs is a simple one; one is given freely, the other is taken.
You aren’t insensitive; I’m a brutally honest person myself. All that you have said I have considered. But my personal hardship doesn’t change what my values are, or my beliefs. If it did, it would merely prove that my beliefs weren’t truly thought out or embraced.
People don’t know what the hell they’re talking about. They pick up on buzz words and what people tell them, and spew out something to the same effect. The most sweeping changes in health care are that people won’t be denied coverage, we get stuck paying less money for people who don’t have insurance because more people will have it, and… well, research it for yourself. Cost containment will help lower the deficit and cover the expense of the bill. Liberals and conservatives are both guilty of being ignorant, though. Think of it this way: if we were getting socialized health care, why did stocks go up for the insurance industry today? It’s because they’re getting a guarantee of more business from Americans. That’s capitalism geared toward private-run health care. Wonder why we’re not more concerned about that.
@KaynDarks: why are you talking about socialism like its such a dirty word? Are you stuck in the Cold War or something? Are you worried that the Commies are coming?
Things aren’t as black and white as you’re making them out. You can’t run the country on the words of the Constitution, a document over 300 years old which clearly cannot cope with the drastic changes that have happened since then. It was written before the industrial revolution of the 1800s and the subsequent poverty, long before the huge business conglomerates that concentrated wealth of the 1900s, long before the Great Depression, before Marx had ever written a word, before the social causes of poverty began to be recognized.
There have been 17 additional amendments to the Constitution, not counting the millions of Laws which the country is actually run upon. Socialist-style in some respects, but like I said, things aren’t as black and white as that. You can’t take a hard and fast ‘let’s be liberal view’, the world doesn’t work like that. You have to be pragmatic. Having socialized health care doesn’t make you socialist, considering how much America bends over backwards to big business.
It’s incredible how ignorant you are. beware! the socialists are coming to steal your money! It’s against the consitution!
I don’t even need to point out everything stupid about your reply. You have no idea how social healthcare works, cuz you haven’t had it, ever. The rest of us, have. and in no way does it deter our lives. We’re all very happy to help each other out, because we know how it works, and don’t have a stupid, unfounded, pre-disposed fear of NOT being greedy, money-grubbing, big-wig fuckheads, flapping our gills about our rights and what the constitution allows us to do. It’s no wonder that country’s on the brink of self-destruction. You all live your lives based on an oxymoron, and you sit there ignorantly defending that very fact.
I did my research, I know my history, and I know very well that the founding fathers of your country were more fascist than you can comprehend. I can give you tons of details, but you wouldn’t believe them even if I gave you documented proof.
Let me spell it out for you and any other socialism-fearing american:
You’re afraid of socialism because your politicians have conditioned you to fear the concept. In no way did any of you inform yourselves about what it really is, and in no way do any of you have a valid reason for hating it.
And by the way, you’re a real hypocrite. Thousands of dollars of medical bills, and you needed charity to help cover the cost? If i need to explain why that’s hypocritical, then my point is beyond proven.
What most people in America don’t realize is that we already have taxpayer funded health care. Medicare? Medicaid? And it varies by state but in Arizona we have something here called AHCCCS. (Arizona Health Care Cost Containment System) One of the beauties of having ahcccs is that if a woman is pregnant and she does not have insurance at the time she will automatically be accepted into ahcccs. This makes sure that you attend important prenatal visits and no one has to worry about paying any bills for having the baby and/or hospital stays. Let me tell you, I am a working mom and at the time i was pregnant did not have healthcare (i was employed at the time, but my employer did not offer, as most salons don’t) An had i not had that opportunity, i would have owed thousands of dollars for my 48 hour labor and c-section and my sons post natal care.
There are some people who will take advantage of the system, but as of right now, (to make it short and to the point) old people and poor people are the only to take advantage of such a system. Shouldn’t EVERYONE have that luxury?
KaynDarks, in addition to the other points, you said that the Constitution does not guarantee you the right to healthcare. Did you know that in 1787, there was a block of delegates who were initially opposed to the Bill of Rights. One member of the Georgia delegation had to stay by way of opposition: “If we list the set of rights, some fools in the future are going to claim that people are entitled only to those rights enumerated and no others.”
I’m not going to weigh in on other points, I’m just not well informed enough. On a purely emotive standpoint, I think anyone arguing that healthcare shouldn’t be free and accessible to everyone is going to struggle not to come off heartless, but I thought you might like to know that Georgia thinks you’re an fool.
I’m sure a socialistic government can work. I pointed this out several times, in fact. You need to work on your reading skills; I never said I hated socialism, or that it’s evil. Stereotyping me isn’t doing you any good, accepting making you feel better about being an ignorant ranting fuck.
Just because it can work, doesn’t mean I have to want it. There are others things that work, as well.
Show me your documented proof. Come on. I’m waiting. Just because I disagree with you doesn’t make me an uneducated fool, or a hate mongering idiot. Assuming that I am just goes to show that, yeah, you might be.
As to the charity used to pay for my bills, again, do you need remedial reading? I pointed out the difference between charity and government care. Go back and take a look, unless you’re incapable. I would have taken care of the bills regardless, but it made it a lot easier. I didn’t demand it, I didn’t assume that I deserved it, but I sure as hell took it when offered.
No, the Constitution can’t cover everything. I don’t assume that it can. But the base of the constitution, the underlying principles, those are important. And I intend to uphold them.
I mention all of these programs (the federal ones). And yes, I’m against them.
Yes, I was aware of opposition to the Bill of Rights. And, in fact, there is a specific Amendment that covers un-enumerated rights (the 9th). Note, though, that none of the initial rights has anything to do with a right to a Product, or a right to not be poor. Not one. Were there not those at the time who couldn’t afford food? Or clothing? I think there were.