Oh dear. Just..just. I have informed friends and family members that when I give birth I will not allow any gross and/or naked pictures taken of me or my baby.
I don’t really see a huge problem with people who post numerous pictures of their kids (as long as the child in question is fully dressed) as I can choose to look or not look, but I do NOT see the point of child nakedness on Facebook.
And this is just…gross. And in the last picture…putting aside the blood..wonderful crotch shot.
So many things wrong…
I’ve never had a baby, but are they supposed to look purple? Can he breathe? Shouldn’t you not just sit around in a pool of BLOOD like that? Wouldn’t giving birth in a pool of water drown the baby? (Maybe that’s why he’s purple.) Shouldn’t a four-year-old NOT watch something like that? Shouldn’t you do this in a hospital or something – not a kiddie pool in your living room?
@46 – Why? I don’t want a baby, not trying to have a baby. Don’t really care if other people have babies – that’s their business and what I do or don’t know about babies doesn’t make a bit of difference to their childbirth process. So why, exactly, should I go learn about childbirth? Last I checked, it wasn’t essential knowledge, unless you’re about to be in that situation.
@45 Dude, I think this is disgusting as much as the next person, but everyone knows about water birth…
No the baby won’t drown, as it receives it’s oxygen through the umbilical cord until the cord is cut (which any sane person would do after removing the baby from the water, duh)
@51 – what.the. – You are the one asking questions about childbirth and making assumptions about it. Jax was just telling you that if you have THAT many questions and incorrect assumptions, then maybe you should learn about it and get the answers you were looking for.
I’ll answer a few, though.
Babies need oxygen just like the rest of us. They get it form the umbilical cord, until it’s cut, so there will be no “drowning”. However, their blood circulatory system is still maturing, which is causing the slight “purple” color.
Many women let the siblings watch the childbirth. It makes them feel like they are “part of the experience” and it helps them deal with the jealousy of a newborn in the house. It’s usually suggested to do this, as long as everyone is comfortable.
Lastly, water births are considered one of the best (and safest) forms of birth, if done right. The water is warmed up so the baby doesn’t have to have the shock of going from a 98 degree womb to a 70 degree delivery room. Also, the water is similar to the amniotic fluid that they were living in, which is one less thing to shock their systems, as they are born. It also makes for easy clean up as you can just dump the water off of your balcony, after you’re done . For safety purposes, there should be a licensed professional at the side of the birthing pool, either a doctor or a nurse or a “midwife” or all three.
Take care all of you crazy kids and have a great weekend!
I love how in the final picture it looks like the sister is bringing her hand up as if she is going to try to catch the chunks that are inevitably rising up from her throat. Or maybe that’s just how we feel looking at it. Hard to say.
>>Many women let the siblings watch the childbirth. It makes them feel like they are “part of the experience” and it helps them deal with the jealousy of a newborn in the house.
Aces, does that mean the kids should also watch the baby being MADE? I’m sure it’d also make them feel like they are a “part of the experience” (said experience being the actual conception of the baby).
ALSO! For the commenter a few lines up, there’s a pretty massive difference between watching your parents have sex and watching the act of childbirth, the first and foremost being that childbirth actually isn’t a sexual act … I’m shocked you would even make try to use that as a valid argument. Birth is ALWAYS an event involving more than just the mother and baby (doctors, nurses, midwives, the mother’s own mother, etc.).
That said, it’s usually viewed by people who have a personal investment in the birth, or are trained and paid to deal with it. I do think it’s a little tacky and over-the-top to put these photos up on a site where your unsuspecting classmates or people you met a party come across them as they scroll down through Farmville announcements. It’s all about moderation!
“ewey gross blood” or “it’s a beautiful natural thing” comments (and everything in between) aside, I am just perterbed that someone would think this appropriate to share with all their facebook friends????
Regarding the harness on the girl: As soon as I realized what that was, I had this mental image of the girl trying to run away from the carnage, only to be yanked back violently when the mom turns demonic and yells “GET OOOOVER HEEEERE!” in Scorpion’s voice from Mortal Kombat.
Which was especially needed after seeing that gross monstrosity up there. All my childhood memories of my kiddie pool are now tainted. Nothing wrong with water births (though if it were me, I’d want the hospital drugs), but no need to show the gory mess.
Also, why is the older child on a leash? They’re tacky enough in public, but for this? Parenting fail.
Oh big deal. She’s not showing any private parts, and it’s HER facebook, so it makes sense that she may post pictures of a fucking major event like the birth of a child. And yes, childbirth = blood. And I don’t see anything wrong with a child watching the birth of their sibling.
But some of you act like pregnant women should sit at home in the dark and never mention her pregnancy to anyone ever, because a single mention or picture makes her some kind of attention whore.
The first pic – I was wondering what the fuss was about (apart from the fact that I don’t REALLY want to see a pregnant mostly naked chick in a paddling pool).
But then… I nearly puked. Yes, it’s natural, but I don’t need to see it! FFS EWWW.
I’m sure it’s just an unfortunate gesture that was caught mid way through, but Ashanti also looks a little sick.
I think however, that my biggest problem is that the little girl is called Ashanti. Why do that to your kids?
Okay, the argument “but childbirth is a beautiful, natural thing!” is just completely stupid. So is sex, but no one should be putting up pictures of them doing THAT. And childbirth is irrefutably “gross”. There’s a reason husbands almost faint. Is having your vagina cut or torn beautiful? Did you know sometimes the vagina and the anus practically become one hole, is that beautiful? Is shitting all over the operating table beautiful? Do people “ooo” and “ah” as you’re screaming in agony and blood is everywhere because “aw, look, it’s just natural”?
You know what, death is natural too but people aren’t posting pictures of Grandpa all bloated, staring up at the ceiling.
a) It’s not NSFW. Unless your boss is terrified of babies and birthing pools (and that *is* a birthing pool by the way).
b) It’s only childbirth. Nothing unnatural, nothing dirty, nothing to be scared of. It’s her facebook, and if she wants to record this moment then why not? For all you know she could have limited viewing of these photos to selected friends and family – just because it ended up here, doesn’t mean she shared it with 300 people. Even if she did, she’s not showing any more flesh than you’d see on a beach, and it’s only blood in water. There’s no gratuitous shots of the baby popping out of the woman’s vagina – you can’t even see a nipple. Grow up.
c) PLENTY of siblings are present at home births. It’s not going to scar them mentally, and it really helps them bond with the new arrival. It’s not abuse, it’s not cruel or selfish and it’s so far from being sexual that I really worry about the state of No 87′s mind if they could liken it to watching the parents have sex.
For Wicca’d Witch, I do not mean to offend but here are my views on your comment:
a) I have no comment on this point as I work alone and it’s not an issue for me.
b) Although it is only childbirth which is indeed natural beautiful event, it was obviously a problem for someone who had access to view these pictures as they sent this into lamebook. Therefore perhaps she should have thought twice before posting them. There is nothing wrong with these pictures in themselves, the problem that I, and I believe others, have is that they posted them in a public forum, with obviously no warning to people as to what they would be seeing. There is obvious social norms that should be followed in these situations. As someone mentioned, these pictures should have been sent via email to select people or shown in person, not publicly (and regardless of how many friends she has or doesn’t have..Facebook is a public forum) displayed.
c) I agree with you 100% that childbirth is not at all sexual, that was a silly comparison #87 made but I am unsure how I feel about a child being present at a birth. I would worry about something going wrong during the delivery and the child being traumatized. But that is my viewpoint and I reserve no judgments towards people who have their children present.
There are some things only family wants to see. This would be one of them.
I would not be sharing this with my Facebook friends.
@shoeface, I agree.
I strongly believe that the actual process of childbirth is a very private thing. That’s just how some people feel. Some people obviously have no problem sharing it with the whole world, but I think you should have the courtesy to ask people if they’d like to see you giving birth in a pool of water before just posting the pictures on Facebook for all of the world to see.
No, I don’t. I just don’t think that picking on people with different values and life styles is ok. There is nothing harmful about this kind of photo shoot.
When there are posts of kids sPeLlInG Liek DiSSSS then YES! Make fun…that is extremely LAME! It’s ignorant and it’s not cute. Some teenage girl having a drama-seizure because said boy-crush of the week doesn’t lick her ass, YES THAT IS LAME!
But this is a family sharing FAMILY pictures…I just don’t get what is so “lame” about this.
That poor baby..
This is going to be one of those “naked baby pictures” you pray your mom doesn’t ever show anyone, especially your boyfriends or husband.
Good job mom! You’re one step ahead, you’ve already shown everyone on facebook.
@Penny Lane etc……. obviously, even if it was only in a private album, obviously it ended up here somehow. What people fail to realize is that once you give a pic up to the net, it’s no longer private, just because you clicked a “privacy setting”. Think about it, unless someone’s toting a hidden camera into your living room as you show your home movies and pics, or sneaks off with a few, no one else outside that room can see them. All it takes is a right click on the net and away we go.
And given that she identified her daughter etc, leads me to believe this was NOT for family only to begin with.
I will go on record and say that even if this was my sister or my best girlfriend, I do NOT want to see her sitting in an amniotic blood bath. Also, do women in these situations even remotely realize how terrifying this is to people who haven’t become mothers yet ? A little editing goes a long way.
BTW, Ray sounds like someone who will grow up to have a pornstache and a jean jacket with the sleeves pushed up. I just had to get that off my chest.
I think, even without the blood, there would be something terribly wrong with these pictures.
If I ever have more than one child, I plan on telling the first that pretty soon there’s going to be another person in the house, and the supply of love, with respect to his portion, will diminish by a factor of 50%
“I’m not going to disagree with you, but who ever submitted this HERE instead of privately talking to the person is a douche”
In that case Penny Lane, is not the person who originally put these pictures up on Facebook also a douche? Obviously someone on her friend list does NOT think they are appropriate. She should have checked with all of her friends to make sure they would be okay with seeing these in their news feed. A simple status update along the lines of ‘Karla **** has before and after shots of Ray’s birth. If anyone is interested in seeing them let me know and I will email them to you”.
These are obviously disturbing pictures to some people and a reasonable person would think it through before posting them online.
For those of you who think that the kids will need therapy after watching this, you obviously have a pretty sheltered view of childbirth throughout the ages and around the world, huh?
As far as I’m concerned, whenever someone wants to post something like this, they should consider this: “Will I be upset when this ends up somewhere I didn’t intend for it to be?” Some people, it wouldn’t be a big deal. “A Baby Story” shows stuff like this (well, with the more graphic parts edited out, but it’s pretty in depth for an afternoon basic cable show) every day, and obviously those families are willing to share their experience with EVERYONE. If you are okay with that, then by all means post it — but as someone else said before me, even if your Facebook is set to private, all it takes is a douche to send it in to websites like this for everyone to see you in all your glory, so you better consider the ramifications of putting yourself all over the Internet.
These photos could have been made a heap more tasteful…if the offending woman would just learn to crop her pictures down a bit!? Yes..her and her kids is beautiful and touching. The photo of them with the whole birthing pool full of blood and chunks included..not so much…
Oh, and the girl ISN’T in a harness..she’s wearing a baby doll carrier for a Babyborn..much like the ones you see Dads carry their babys in, but she’s got it on her back..
Up until this i’ve been like ‘leave the naked babies alone’ but no… this is messed up. Who would want to lay in a pool of their own blood in front of their children? Home birth is illegal where i live cos so many babies die.
Christ, people–Facebook is not your personal photo album! I think all of these problems of “inappropriate” photos arise from people thinking that everyone in the world is as thrilled to see their biological processes as they are. Seriously, the internet is not your gynecologist. Learn how to crop. I’m not saying that there’s anything “wrong” with this picture, just that there’s an appropriate venue for graphic birth photos and it’s not Facebook.
All the people babbling about how this is okay because childbirth is a ‘beautiful and natural biological process’ or whatever… you need to shut up. As someone else pointed out, I could argue that my period is a beautiful and natural biological process, but that doesn’t mean you want to see pictures of my bloody tampon strewn across your news feed. The fact is, there are just some things that you should not post pictures of in public. Two of those things are:
- Naked or very nearly naked genitals
- Bodily fluids
If mom has posted pictures without these things, I doubt people would be taking such issue with these pictures. The blood in the pool + the fact that you can nearly see mommy’s bits is what makes people uncomfortable, not the fact that she gave birth. It’s not that hard to understand.
All these people who are so grossed out by it, I’m going to go ahead and guess the age group averages in the teens, maybe early twenties. I’m also going to guess that these people don’t have a problem with watching torture porn movies like Saw and Hostel as in it wouldn’t elicit the same response as seeing a little blood and some afterbirth in water. If we (as a society) were exposed to childbirth and what it looks like and what it entails since childhood as we do violent gory movies or news broadcasts, I would bet that women wouldn’t have such a hard time with it because the fear isn’t there anymore, and we would all be a little less ignorant about things. I mean, for christ sakes someone on here doesn’t know what an umbilical cord does!
However, that aside, I don’t think it is appropriate to post on facebook where anyone can see anything. Maybe in a flickr or snapfish account where you can invite select people to share the pictures with.
“I would bet that women wouldn’t have such a hard time with it because the fear isn’t there anymore.”
When people watch torture movies, would they not have as hard of a time being tortured? Um, no. Sorry, but childbirth is PAINFUL. No amount of coverage and exposing girls to it is going to make it more pleasant and look less like a murder scene.
Newsflash: people are also grossed out from movies like Saw and Hostel, thus why people scream and cringe when they watch them. The difference is that they watch Saw and Hostel to be scared and seek some entertainment from them. Where is the entertainment in seeing a women wearing only a bikini top sitting in a chunky blood bath?
People don’t generally sit around the living room showing their birthing videos to their guests, and posting these sorts of pictures on the world wide web isn’t much different.
Can we please all agree that any photos of “dropping the kids off at the pool”, even if it’s just one kid..should be saved for an OFFLINE photoalbum? Please? That afterbirth may as well be mensuration, and for all practical purposes it is.
As a side note, a naked baby is nothing to get in a pinch about. It’s the crotch shot and the shed uterus that is troublesome.
Okay, true this is probably something that the family should have kept private and not posted on facebook – but I really don’t see what the problem is with everyone. It’s natural, and we aren’t seeing the woman giving birth – aside from the blood and bodily fluids that are in the pool, there is nothing wrong with this picture.
Another thing, the woman is probably exhausted, so all those people who are saying ‘i’d be out of that pool as quick as I could be’, she’s enjoying the fact that it’s over and she is holding her new born in her arms – probably not quite in the right state to move just yet. Plus, it’s her own blood etc, so it’s not THAT gross to sitting in it.
And I say this as a teenager, I think some of you need to grow up a little – you have the right to say that this shouldn’t be posted up on facebook and that it is a little gross – but the people saying that ‘she looks like a beached whale’… get a life or don’t comment.
I have been taught in every single fetal physiology class I’ve ever taken that water births are extremely dangerous just because raising the temperature of the baby dramatically increases the risk of brain damage. If an incident occurs during childbirth and the fetus becomes hypoxic, the chance of brain damage occuring and the severity of the damage will be hugely worsened by heat.
Has anyone read Survivor by Chuck Palahniuk?
The part where all the Creedish children are forced to see childbirth, scarring them for life and making them want to never ever have sex?
Yeah. Screw you all. This is F*cking Gross.
At first I was like “Ok that’s kind of personal. Hugely preggo and sitting PANTSLESS in a kiddie pool ready to give birth. But whatever. It’s not as big a deal as everyone’s making it out to be.” I’m actually 9 months & ready to pop right now myself, so it’s no big deal to me. Then I clicked the thingie and saw all the blood and thought “TMI TMI TMI TMI TMI!” – ok yeah the beautiful miracle of birth and stuff, we get it, but there are just some things that don’t belong on a social networking site and that includes kiddie pools filled with your blood.
Mom and Dad could have eeeeeaasily cropped those photos.
To all the people who say ‘birth is not lame’: way to miss the point.
Birth is not lame, afterbirth is not lame, menstruation is not lame and kids’ genitals are not lame.
This does not mean that ANYONE outside your (very immediate) family wants to feast their eyes on visuals of any of these things. (I love my nieces and nephews more than life itself, but if my sister showed me pictures of her afterbirth, either in or out of a wading pool, I would barf in her face).
As for the ‘grow up’ comments? The people who think this totally crosses the line ARE grown up. Grown up enough to realise that other people do not want to see pictures of them sitting half-naked in their own blood. For any reason. Ever.
why is there no pictures of BLACK HOT COCK in this site? i want to see some pussyfag white slave whores getting mastered and dominated by STRONG MONSTER BLACK COCKS THAT ARE HUGE THICK AND VERY FAT. I WANT TO SEE BLACK COCK FUCK TINY WHITE TEENS SLOWLY TO GET THEIR PUSSIES WATER AND JUICE white pussy cum so that black fat nigga cock can fuck it FAST AND DEEP. then i want to see some SLUT WHORE WHITE OR ASIAN HOE LICK BLACK BALLS WHILE BLACK MONSTER ABDOMINAL BLACK MAN COCK RESTS ON THEIR WHOLE FACES
WTF is that kid wearing? A training bra on the outside of her shirt? Lol if that were my kid I’d tell her to stop leaning on the pool.. she could easily slip and fall in. I’m glad I’m giving birth in a hospital and not taking pictures and putting them on facebook tyvm. I may take video but it’ll be for my own viewing later cause I can’t watch when it’s happening XD Still.. no FB!
OH MY GOD!!!!!!! (because OMG wouldn’t have been severe enough) Why the HELL would someone post pics on Facebook like that???????????????? WHY?? yes, childbirth is a miracle (sort of) and a special moment…but it is also hideously disgusting! WHAT THE FUCK??? (again WTF wouldn’t cut it). Unreal.
And her oldest kid looks like she’s ready to puke into her own hand….I know, because I made that same gesture while I was looking at these pictures.
I agree that this lady is pretty ridiculous for putting this on her Facebook page, because no, NOBODY wants to see you marinating in your own afterbirth. However, sending it to Lamebook was a stupid move as well. She probably just meant for her fb friends to see it, not the hoards of people who visit this site. Yes, she is crazy for posting it, but I don’t necessarily think she deserves this kind of public ridicule. Bad move, Lamebook, I think this one should be taken down. Also, where’s the NSFW?! I would have appreciated some sort of warning.
Everyone commenting on this thread needs to see “The Business of Being Born” — a documentary which shows several kinds of birth. Rachel Ray includes video footage of her own birth, at home, and yes, she is naked–which is generally the case when mothers give brith. Many of the people in the documentary have their older kids present at the birth. You think that’s messed up? Well, maybe they don’t have “health class” in your state. What kind of world is this where people not only have no idea what a birth looks like, they get hung up on “ick”???
Nathan: Thank you! The Business of Being Born is really great. People today only know the medical side, which isn’t the only way and definitely not the ideal way. Childbirth shouldn’t be scary or gross.
“Childbirth shouldn’t be scary or gross.”
It shouldn’t be on facebook either. What’s wrong with you people, is nothing sacred anymore? I’m amazed the mom-to-be isn’t holding a cellphone to keep people up to date on twitter. Jeez…
I’m sure it’s a good documentary, but generally people can choose whether or not they want to see things like this. I just don’t think these pictures should be posted on a public site like Lamebook with absolutely no warning on the homepage about what the full entry contains.. Also, if I were friends with this woman and these pictures suddenly appeared on my fb news feed, I would not be pleased.
I agree that childbirth should not only be thought of as scary and gross, it is a special and natural thing, but not everybody wants to look at such things. It doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with “growing up,” some folks just don’t want to see a woman sitting in a pool of her own blood for fuck’s sake! That doesn’t mean they’re immature.
There’s nothing as relaxing as being born into a pool of bloody water, surrounded by the smell of afterbirth and cheap plastic while neon fish stare at you. I hope the money they saved on hospital bills is in an account for the child’s future therapy sessions.
@Petunia: Being born would be so traumatic in and of itself that if we could remember being born, we’d all need therapy. So being born in a cheap plastic tub and surrounded by the smell of afterbirth would have no psychological damage. Have common sense, sheesh.
Wow people, relax on the sensitivity. There’s nothing wrong with those photos, just pictures of the biggest miracles of life. Yes there’s blood and nudity but what the hell is wrong with that? It’s just who we are… And if you can’t handle it, then why on earth are you looking at this?
And Petunia? Are you serious? This is waaayyy better are more natural way for the child to being born into this world. There’s absolutely nothing natural about hospital delivery rooms. Medicine, stressful mother, C section and so on…that’s not how it’s supposed to be even though it can be neccecery. And yes, I’m studying to become a midwife so I know what I’m talking about…
Wow, so many people still continue to miss the point, even after people like Spoder and commenter #203 explained things perfectly well. Do people really not understand why these sort of photos are inappropriate to post on the internet? Really?
Seriously! I can’t believe there are so many people here who think this is acceptable. Maggie, blood and nudity don’t belong on social networking sites like Facebook! And we’re all looking at this because Lamebook didn’t warn us of what it was ahead of time. I suppose you’re allowed to disagree, but I don’t know why the people who find this inappropriate are being told to relax or grow up, it’s a perfectly reasonable opinion to have.
That being said, reading this thread has actually been a lovely distraction from my homework today, so… carry on I guess : )
The Business of Being Born was made by & features Ricki Lake, not Rachel Ray, but it is amazing. I understand that birth is something that some people aren’t comfortable with (like breastfeeding) but all I can think of regarding those who think it’s so icky is: haha.
Ok seriously. You just shit a child out of your vagina. How is that beautiful? Don’t get me wrong, it is all natural. But your “friends on facebook” don’t need to know. Guess what else is natural? Me taking a HUGE shit or masturbating into a Kleenex. You don’t see me posting that crap on facebook. I AM A ROBOT! MUST GET MARRIED MUST BUY HOUSE MUST MAKE KIDS MUST GET DIVORCED BECAUSE I AM FAT ROBOT ROBOT ROBOT
“This is waaayyy better are more natural way for the child to being born into this world.”
Any chance you might have had at making a cogent point in this discussion is entirely trounced by this epic grammar fail.
This is the most brutal massacre of syntax seen since “Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?”
Had you used that sentence as part of your FB status, it would have had a good chance of ending up an item here – that should tell you exactly how much it’ll be appreciated in this thread. If it hadn’t turned up so late in an overblown thread about a contentious topic, you’d already have been ripped a new one by the grammar police.
You can consider this as a friendly written warning.
Please feel free in future to read back to yourself what you’ve written before hitting ‘submit’, in case you’ve totally missed spazzing out mid-process.
@Maggie: Okay, sure giving birth in a plastic kiddie pool might be more natural (ahem), but you know what? Dying of infection and bleeding to death are also natural, but we don’t exactly let people do that if it can be helped. I’ve heard something like laying on your back during childbirth can be worse than other positions, which is why in the olden days women used to give birth in chairs or squatting, but you’re “OMG it’s the most natural and best way” argument is just kind of bullshit. Just because things are “natural” doesn’t mean they’re better. That’s what technology and innovation are for.
How is it natural to give birth in a pool of water?, I don’t know any tribes that give birth under water, heck I’m not sure in all of history was it a tradition. Giving birth underwater is fine for whales and dolphins, not for humans. We have lungs, not gills.
@Anon: Laura probably doesn’t look at pictures of dolphins and whales on a regular basis. When she does chance upon a picture or video of said mammals, she probably doesn’t scrutinize every detail. They live in water, it’s an honest mistake.
Like what the hell!?!? This is the 21st century. People should not be giving birth in kiddie pools! Miracle of childbirth? Yeah, miracle the baby didn’t drown when the first thing it saw was that it was in a pool of water. Even in the ancient world people had more sense than to do this. The stupid, it burns!
@Anon: Laura probably doesn’t look at pictures of dolphins and whales on a regular basis. When she does chance upon a picture or video of said mammals, she probably doesn’t scrutinize every detail. They live in water, it’s an honest mistake.”
No, it’s a braindead mistake. You don’t need to scrutinize pictures to know that dolphins and whales are mammals. It would be like my telling you that elephants are related to dinosaurs. Hey, I don’t know–they’re both big! Could be!
^ Actually jane, I’m pretty squeamish, and barf/blackout pretty much at the sight of the tiniest bit of blood. Puking ain’t cool… it’s just something those with weak stomachs do. But, as grossed out as I was by the pic, it was that that made me feel ever so slightly nauseous. It was Noam GR’s comment daring someone to drink it. Now that IS gross.
I think this is wonderful and it’s obvious that most of the morons commenting on this picture don’t have children, nor have they ever witnessed a child being born. It is a truly amazing experience, and something that should be celebrated! I’m happy for this mother and her family and if you don’t like this picture then don’t get on a site that shows “offensive” pictures. I feel terrible for this family, however, that their pictures have been taken and exploited on this site for all of you immature jerks to ridicule. GROW UP. We ALL came into the world this way, and maybe one day when you mature and pull your head out of your ass, you’ll be able to experience such a joyous occasion such as the birth of a beautiful child.
AND why is everyone criticizing her child’s name? It’s a fairly common name, and what does it matter anyway?.. Again…GROW UP!
I enjoy how political these discussions get when this site is supposed to be fun.
*gets out soapbox*
The problem isn’t so much that she’s sharing the photos, it’s that she’s sharing them on facebook. Regardless of her photo settings, Facebook’s policy means that they legally own this photo now, so any semblance of privacy is gone. I also feel it’s very narcissistic, because of the public nature of facebook. Sure, you may have family on the other side of the world so you can’t physically show them these photos. Solution? Email them, post them, don’t paste them across the internet for every Tom, Dick and Harry to see.
Posting photos of having a baby on the internet is under ‘bogan behaviour’ in the social dictionary.
We love it here when the latest earnest, intelligent and indignant mouth turns up with yet another explanation of exactly what’s wrong with everyone. Much as I agree with most of what you have to say, being a pompous ass myself, I have little but contempt for the windbaggery of other inferior pompous asses, especially when they’re just echoing the same message that has turned up every 10 posts or so. You’d really be feeding the trolls if you hadn’t turned up so late that even they can hardly be bothered picking the bones out of this one anymore. Please try harder. Somewhere else.
“Has anyone addressed the fact that the daughter is on a leash?”
For fuck sake you lazy cow, if you can’t be bothered to skim the thread, you could at least just run a page search for the word ‘leash’. And yes, it’s been alluded to several times. It’s most likely to prevent her from falling or jumping into the water. Or just to stop the poor sprog escaping the potentially traumatic experience of witnessing mommy panting and screaming as she squeezes a large homunculus (and a bucket of blood) out of a too small hole between her thighs and into her paddling pool.
“I enjoy how political these discussions get when this site is supposed to be fun.”
Thank you, that *really* needs to be said more often. These days, pretty much every thread. Also, top marks for bringing bogans to the table. I am the creepy guy applauding your soap box performance from across the square, who’s going to shyly ask if you’d like to go for a coffee . . .
This chemically imbalanced rant was brought to you by the letter X, the number 23 and the medication chlorpromazine.
“AND why is everyone criticizing her child’s name? It’s a fairly common name, and what does it matter anyway?.. Again…GROW UP!”
I agree. I actually like the name, but since there’s a pop singer named that, I personally wouldn’t use it for my own daughter (if I were to have one). But it makes me wonder what kind of boring names these commenters would give their children. Sarah? Amanda? Michael? Jacob? *rolls eyes* Now that is something to puke about.
I also don’t really see the big deal about this. I’m not going to say it’s beautiful or anything, but it’s not really that gross, either. I agree that it’s not the best choice to put it up on Facebook, but I don’t really care, to be honest. I think people should be exposed to child birth more often so that they’re not so grossed out. It’s really not all that bad.
I wouldn’t be surprised if these same people find breastfeeding disgusting, which is really quite silly and somewhat sexist. This does cross the line a bit more than that, and I can understand how people wouldn’t like it, but I still think it’s silly. Especially the people who are like, “OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!111 I ALMOST PUKED!!!!!!!!11!!1one” Really? Exaggerating much? Watch a few horror movies; maybe it’ll make you less squeamish.
I’ve been watching people make a huge deal of this and it’s probably pointless saying anything in the face of such opinionated comments, but here goes:
You’re obviously not squeamish yourself. I don’t watch horror films. Full stop. There’s too much blood in them. I know my limits. I can’t deal with blood most of the time. It’s only vaguely debilitating, since normally you don’t see lots of blood on a day to day basis. Unless you work in the medical professions, which obviously, I don’t.
The fact that it DOES genuinely make me feel nauseous to see the image is the only real issue I have with it. It doesn’t make me heartless or cruel, or mean I’m trying to be cool. I am not being melodramatic about it either. My squeamishness is certainly not going to be fixed by watching horror films.
I don’t think this kind of image should be on lamebook at all. It’s not the right subject matter for this kind of site. I don’t really want to see it on Facebook either, but regardless of my own thoughts about too much information/appropriateness etc, each to their own and I will keep to my own. I’m sure the poor woman who posted the photos on Facebook didn’t intend for them to be used on lamebook…
Breast feeding is obviously fine, since there is no blood involved I’m not grossed out by childbirth per se, I just don’t want to look at pictures of it. That is not callous or denying the ‘naturalness’ of it. It’s just a personal preference.
Childbirth should be a private matter between a mother, her child, and maybe her husband. Now we are forced to have a bunch of doctors there, yes. Because well… if the kid comes out with the chord wrapped around it is head? then what? Exactly, doctor does his shabam, problem solved.
childbirth does NOT need to be all over lamebook. Really doesnt. it is like posting a picture of your dick online. What? People shouldnt care if they see a penis. They should learn to embrace it. Girls will have it in them most of the time, and guys enjoy stoking their penis 90% of their time.
Bad logic. Retarded logic. What’s next? Posting a sequence photo on how your cat died?
“Here is fluffy in its basket.”
“Here is fluffy at the vet.”
“Here is the vet injecting Fluffy.”
“Here is fluffy going to sleep/ struggling to survive.”
“Here is dead Fluffy!”
-___-” Lets realize something here… Ray is going to find this when he grows up and kill himself. Good job mother of ashanti and ray.
I would never post a picture of me almost completely naked in a pool waiting to give birth. Also once the baby came out and all the blood I would be getting out of the water. Even if it is my own blood I wouldn’t want to just sit in it.. That’s just how I feel.. Childbirth is a very beautiful thing for the mother, father and family.. Not so much for the facebook friends.
Throwing up is natural too, how about I take a picture of that and post it for all you “oh it’s so beautiful” people? Cause I’m pretty close to doing it.
She can zoom in on her cooch crowning, for all I care, but when you post something on the Internet, even if you click the little “private” button, you reap what you sow. It’s her own fault she’s now being scrutinized for it.
@Thesaurapist 13(F): I almost peed myself reading your grammar lesson.
Imagine, one day you’re playing in your paddling pool and your mum says “you were born in that pool.” At the time you wouldn’t really think about what that meant. Then, some years later you see the photos…
I seriously hope for the kids sake that they get rid of that paddling pool.
I’m not a fan of children, and/or child birth, but each to their own. But seriously, I do not need to see it! It’s bad enough when you see these photos taken moments after the birth, child is pink and sticky and the mother looks like she just shat out a truck after not sleeping for the best part of a decade. Why not go the whole hog and post some pictures of the baby being conceived too. I totally need to see that!
Maybe the sister was there to gain an insight on how she made her own way into the world. In the very same pool. In fact, it could be a family tradition to shit out your kids into a cheap plastic paddling pool. She is learning how to do it right, so when she turns 12 she can get knocked up and follow in the footsteps of her mother, and her mothers mother…. She could use the same pool, like a family heirloom.
@ Michlerish – I’m not from North America and I’m aware of where I came from. But do you want to see pics of where I came from? No?
Like I said, lovely that she gave birth. Lovely that she had a baby. Slightly less lovely that she made her other child watch. Not lovely at all they she decided FB was the appropriate forum to display pics of herself dilated to 5cm in a child’s paddling pool filled with bloody water.
Michlerish, get over yourself. Most people don’t have a problem with childbirth and people making the decision to be parents. Most people do have a problem with said parents putting the pics onto a social networking site. This occasion shouldn’t be social, it should be private for the new family to enjoy together.
@ Michlerish- We all came out a vagina yes. But thankfully our pictures are NOT on facebook to the world to see. Take a blood bath and come to see me to tell me if how cool it was. Then we’ll talk again
i honestly do not see anything wrong with this….tons of people have pics of themself in the hospital bed while in labor on FB. she is having a water birth, i dont see the difference. you cant see anything but her belly. anyone who thinks this is gross or odd is very immature and obviously not a parent lol
To the people stating the mother might have filtered the photo, obviously somebody came close to losing their breakfast/lunch/dinner when they refreshed their facebook and was PISSED or at the very least really annoyed. If only the appropriate people saw it it wouldn’t have wound up here. DURRRRRR. Think, dummies.
As someone who has seen childbirth both natural and a c-section, its a wonderful thing and all, but not something you need to share with the whole world. I have seen nurses pass out watching childbirth. When I give birth in 6 months no one will be getting near me with a camera until I have been cleaned up and everything.
You all are so childish. I am friends with women who post pics of their childbirth on their FB, and they typically publish some sort of warning of the pics first. They don’t typically just throw them up on the page like that. Even before I had my 2 kids, I would not think this is disgusting. After my last, which was a homebirth, I definitely wouldn’t see these as gross because I had a lot more blood in my tub while I was waiting for the placenta to pass. You would’ve thought I was sitting in a tub full of watered down tomato soup. When a woman is done giving birth, she is relieved and wants to relax where she is taking in the situation and enjoying her new baby. Her first priority is not, “gross, blood water, get me out of here.” She has an oxytocic high which will cause her to immediately bond with her baby (assuming she is not medicated therefore blocking the effect of natural oxytocin). The older sister is not wearing a leash, it is a backpack carrier for a baby doll, and she was probably watching because she wanted to. My 4 your old son would’ve been in the room when my son was born, but he had to use the bathroom at that moment. It is sad that you all that are so grossed out about this would probably be perfectly fine seeing pics of a women hooked up to all kinda of monitors, wires, and such in a hospital bed in a cold hospital room surrounded by people in scrubs and seeing a freshly born baby on a cold weighing scale across the room from Mom or Dad. Now that is what is disgusting to me. I mean really, there is not even that much blood.
Wow, wasn’t that fascinating hearing about your placenta. I’m sure we’ll now be able to sleep at night.
I mean, it’s not as if giving new life to this world has just been degraded to something athat can be commented on via a social networking site. I mean, no one can be ARSED to send cards or flowers anymore, instead of “liking” it.
No, if I was the child who had pictures of me being born on my mother’s Facebook, I wouldn’t be the least bit upset of that matter. In fact, I think I’d forward the link to all my friends.
NOTE THE SARCASM.
And you’re right, there isn’t that much blood.
Only a playpool full.
Look Elizabeth, good for you that you think childbirth is so beautiful. I have news for you-a lot of people would disagree. There’s no way I wouldn’t be pissed off to see that splashed across my Facebook. I don’t know why people think everybody wants to see their fucking afterbirth these days. Jesus Christ, I don’t even want to hear excessive crap about their kids. That’s why I am a devoted member of stfuparents. NOBODY GIVES A FUCK, ASIDE FROM YOU. And NEWSFLASH-NOBODY WANTS TO SEE YOUR BLOODY BIRTHWATER, EITHER. It’s becoming increasingly obvious that people have forgotten the golden rule of the internet- just because you can post it doesn’t mean you should. Posting something so intimate on Facebook is about as classy as those morons who post pics of their dead babies on myspace. It’s not something anybody wants to see. If somebody asks? By all means send it by sms or email or whip out your wallet-sized photo and brag all you want. If you post this crap on Facebook, you totally deserve to be snarked for it. Again, it OBVIOUSLY disturbed somebody on this lady’s friendslist, so clearly all her friends didn’t want to see it.
Actually, a large portion of my friends are those of us that are a little bit more educated on the topic of childbirth and obviously tons more mature about the fact than most of you on here, and we love hearing about and “experiencing” other womens childbirth experiences. And no, that was NOT a pool full of blood. That was pretty much equivalent to taking a full cup of water and putting a drop of food coloring in it. I have seen MUCH worse than that. If you can’t hack looking at it, then don’t. Why is it up to YOU to decide what other people should post online? And please do not say that nobody wants to see that, because there are a lot of us that do not look at this and see close to nudity or a pool of blood. We see an empowered, amazing woman who has just overcome an amazing feet, and experienced something that millions of women will never even knew they missed because of what society tells us today. Would you be so up in arms if some college kids were posting pictures of themselves even more revealing at the beach or some pool party dry humping each other? It is so normal for us to see sexualized images, but God forbid a woman wants to share with people the beauty of nature, bringing a child into this world. And as I said before, NONE of you would be saying a word if those were pictures of a woman covered in wires in a cold hospital bed and then seeing a baby in a plastic box being “checked out” afterwards. Yea, that’s what you all call “normal.” Now quit yer bitc**n, and, as it’s been said, grow, up.
Are you aware that there are places where those types of pictures are appropriate? Facebook is not one of them. Get your head out of your ass. I’m a strong empowered woman and that shit squicks me and a lot of other people. And how are you telling me/us to not speak for other people, then turning around to tell us what we would or wouldn’t ‘be up in arms about’? Hypocrite much? Stfu and stop talking down to people who don’t share your opinion. This is a snark site, not a gathering place for annoying wordy pretentious douches. Jesus.
Agreed, saying people have the right to post anything and then saying they shouldn’t post negative comments is pretty hypocritical. My biggest concern is for that poor little girl…yes, she may in the future give birth, but she’s also going to die at one point, there’s no need for spoilers at that age. Let her mature a bit before you show her rated R material.
I’m so glad I can experience the ‘beauty’ of childbirth via Facebook. It sure does look a sight to behold, with all the blood and the dialating and the screaming prior to the baby popping out. Gorgeous, can’t wait.
As proud a mum as (I’m sure) she is and as natural as childbirth is, not everyone wants to witness it.
I personally don’t think that childbirth is beautiful. It maybe natural, but with all the other stuff that goes on, it certainly ain’t beautiful. And how can you possibly call something that still kills hundreds of thousands of women a year, beautiful?
And, before you say it, I am not a parent. That is my choice. So, therefore, it is also my choice not to see the “beauty” of childbirth. I don’t want to see it in any way. In a pool, in a hospital bed, or on Facebook!!
@ Elizabeth – I think you’ll find she overcame an amazing ‘feat’, not her amazing ‘feet’. Unless you know her and she does have amazing feet, but you don’t and she doesn’t.
They called the title right, clearly. But I think Elizabeth has lost her way and should be on mumsnet. Like I’ve said before, would you have everyone on your friends list? Really? That’s a genuine question, Elizabeth. No? Then don’t put your fucking pictures where everyone can see them. And this site proves it. One of her ‘friends’ obviously thought the birth of her child and the successive pictures were so lame that they ended up on here. So e-mail the pics to the friends and family that care then this won’t happen. They have private e-mail accounts, you know, they need them to enable their public FB accounts.
FUCKING NASTY. Not the water birth, but the fact that she posted the shit on Facebook. And I never understood women who were cool with letting their young children watch them push another child out of their vagina. REALLY?!?!?
“Maybe less of us would feel nauseous or pass out looking at childbirth if we were more familiar with it by watching it happen when we were younger. Just sayin’”–
Thanks for just sayin’ that, Ken. You are 100% right. Birth is a private family event which should be kept private. I don’t like these personal intimate photos posted randomly. But homebirth, with siblings present (when they have been given the choice and have been prepared) is how most cultures have always done birth. Usually the men are kept out cuz they are wimps, most of them. Homebirth, for low risk mothers, is the safest or as safe as hospital birth. In many ways much safer than birthing in an institution. But keep your photos to yourself!
@281: MOST of you commenters are just fucking stupid. Hey guess what? ALL OF YOU CAME OUT OF A WOMAN’S VAGINA.
Stupid fucking North America and it’s overly conservative, christian, clinical society.
It’s fucking child-birth people. If you have a problem with it, you are a defective organism and will die out appropriately.
I am well aware that I came out of a woman’s vagina, although not everyone did, in fact, do so. (Have you ever heard of a little procedure called a C-section?) That does not mean that I want to watch other babies come out of THEIR mothers’ vaginas.
I am an atheist and a liberal. Your generalizations are as much of a failure as your grasp of the proper use of “its” versus “it’s.” My atheist liberal sensibilities still do not want to see the bloody aftermath of childbirth.
I assume you would be happy if my gene pool died out, since I have a problem with people posting things like this to Facebook. That gene pool includes geniuses and rocket scientists, but I guess it’s still defective because I don’t want to look at a picture of someone giving birth. Oh, well.
“That gene pool includes geniuses and rocket scientists” BAHAHAHAHAHA. Please post me a link that in any way, shape or form reinstates this completely absurd claim. Being a liberal and an athiest has nothing to do with your “gene pool” or genetic make-up. Doesn’t take a genius, or a rocket scientist, to figure that one out. Oh, and another favor I must ask of you, being from North America and highly conservative (and also in complete acceptance that I came out of a woman’s vagina), is please explain to me how you make the connection of people posting comments about a photo of a woman in labor on facebook with: North America, Conservatives, Christians, or a “clinical society” (great liberal cherry on top of this whole comment, loved it).
Or is this just another atheist liberal ranting on about society because it’s just not good enough for them and making up completely false statements to make their claims seem justified.
If you find that you have a lot in common with the person above, genius/rocket scientist or not, please, please, please, just do us all a favor and end your pathetic, miserable lice.
AHH! I saw the first pic and thought “Well, that’s not that bad, people do water births and all, and she’s still clothed and there’s no blood in sight.” Then I clicked to see the comments and saw the OTHER pictures. OW, OW, OW, MY EYES. I’ve witnessed a birth, but DUDE, posting pictures of you STILL IN THE BLOODY WATER on Facebook is just… wrong. Seriously.
(BTW, it’s rather common in home water births to use a new kiddie pool or a bathtub for the birth… I have no problems with that and don’t find it white trashy, but taking pictures of the still-bloody water and posting them on Facebook? Yeah, there should certainly be a line somewhere waaay before that happens)
Keep this shit off of Facebook you assholes! I don’t want or care to see your giant ass sitting in a chunky bloody pool. It completely takes the attention away from your child much the less the “Beauty” of his birth. You are a callous egotistical cow to even think every single person on your Facebook wants to see that! I never did this nor would I ever do this to my friends, family and acquaintances.
Fuck off with childbirth is beautiful. Babies are beautiful, squeezing them out of wet bloody vaginas is NOT and I don’t want to see yours. Especially if it’s a person on my Facebook. Don’t shove that crap in my face!
Moms, get this through your thick skulls. STOP! You give other sane mothers a bad name. Just because you had a baby does not mean his birth process is the most amazing thing on earth to everyone else in the world. Everyone has their own idea of amazing, your bloody swimming pool is NOT AMAZING TO ME!
WHAT THE FUCK! THIS BITCH IS NASTY! ALL THAT FUCKING AFTERBIRTH FLOATING AROUND (MOVING INTO CREVICES OF HER BODY I CAN’T EVEN IMAGINE) THAT IS REALLY UNSAFE TO GIVE BIRTH WITHOUT A DOCTOR PRESENT! THIS BITCH IS CRAZY
i think the bluuuuuuuuhhhhhdduh kid from youtube should have been the announcer for this event.. it still would have been gross but at least it would have been funny…. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fVDGu82FeQ
btw- i beg to differ w/ him… it’s funny as hell!!
It’s okay to post pictures of yourself having a blood bath. But it’s not okay to post critical comments. WTF? How hypocritical is that?
Yes, I am sure child-birth is all beautiful, but you have to admit, parts of it are shit disgusting. Why do people get so bent out of shape when you tell them blood + placenta + pool = YUCK! And It’s not about being uncomfortable with it or immature about it, it’s about things that gross you out, baby or no baby.
If it’s something you want to ‘share’ with women who like to ‘share’ child-birth ‘experiences’, then make sure you don’t publish it to your stupid wall for the whole world to see and puke.
Wow. You people are absolute fucktards. If it weren’t for childbirth, none of you morons would even be here. Maybe that would be a good thing. The only fail here is that the mother didn’t have the good sense to control her privacy settings.
Homebirths are at a peak right now because the medical industry is so out of whack. Women go to doctors and are told they need to be cut upon or given an assload of drugs in order to do something women (not to mention other mammals) have been doing naturally and successfully for millions of years. So, it’s not surprising that many women are choosing to experience birth – sometimes water births – at home.
Her older child is not going to need “therapy.” Do you need therapy for eating or breathing? It’s just part of life, you fucking idiot.
There’s nothing particularly extra-sanitary about a hospital or any “special” tub they put you in for a waterbirth a medical facility. Simply put, people are figuring out that all the hype is horseshit. More power to them.
While I agree with you about childbirth being natural, your assumption that women have been doing it “successfully” for millions of years is, well, wrong. Most mammals, it’s true, find it a rather simple process to give birth; humans have a specific adaptation that makes it a little tougher: bipedalism. The shape of female hips in humans makes the birth canal considerably smaller, relative to other mammals, leading to many difficulties. Evolution doesn’t make perfect organisms, merely suitable ones, so just because it’s been millions of years doesn’t mean we can’t improve on nature. And improve on nature we have: “over 90% of maternal deaths occur in developing countries.”(Source: Wikipedia) What does this tell you? Well, just think about the differences in medical care offered between the “Western” developed nations and those in developing countries. Also: “The historical level of maternal deaths is probably around 1 in 100 births. Mortality rates reached horrible proportions in maternity institutions in the 1800s, sometimes climbing to 40 percent of birthgiving women. At the beginning of the 1900s, maternal death rates were around 1 in 100 for live births. The number today in the United States is 11 in 100,000, a decline by two orders of magnitude.” Once again, modern medicine has vastly improved upon nature.
That’s not to say that there is no place for home births; I’m sure they can be just as safe, under appropriate conditions, but there is a reason people are living longer and healthier lives : modern medicine just fucking works. There is no conspiracy of doctors who think they need to force drugs onto people or cut them open just for the hell of it. They do things because they work.
I just got brain overload on everything wrong with this picture…
The harness… the blood… the kiddie pool… the crotch shot… Oh, good lord…
Yeah, the “beauty of childbirth” and junk, but daaaamn…
That being said, she probably knew how redonkulous this was, cuz she put it on here…
OMG why the hell would you post this stuff on facebook???? this is soooooo wrong…these kind of pics should be restricted to family or personal albums only. i feel sorry for the small girl having to watch this :S
Why anyone would set up a birth and post it on fb is just beyond.
It all looks VERY real, the blood, the colour of the baby, and her stomach, which after 9 months of stretching, would take longer than 5 minutes to bounce back!
before I had my kid this probably would have grossed me out big time. I had to watch a video of this woman giving birth and her vage like split open like it looked like an oversized oyster that splits apart and this monster comes out of it. anyway, I could look at those photos without the gag thing coming in. she posted those pictures because she was proud of her son and his birth in the water, obviously she delivered him herself? apparently its the most natural birth you can have. until you have been through the pain, tears, birth, blood then baby, you will never fully understand childbirth and the joy it brings you. I would say she bought that pool to have her baby in it not borrowed her kids one from out the back. also I am sure she wanted to share the photos with her friends and family not everyone on the internet like here….
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:19 am
holy fuck. what the hell??? thats fucking messed up. oh and wouldn’t the baby drown? i mean… nvm.
thats just fucked up.”
you dumbass. what do you think the baby is floating in inside the mother? fresh fucking air? babies can breath and swallow at the same time which is how they are able to be born in water. they don’t breathe for a couple of seconds after they are born anyway. oh would it surprise you to also know that babies are initially born GREY and not pink? its their first breaths of air that make them pink?
This is fuckin disgusting… if this is how you wanna give birth than fuck it by all means do it, but PLEASE do NOT post this on facebook…let alone to the person who submitted this to lamebook, you’re sick in the head.
Words cannot even describe this. But the best part is that when Ray is older and wants to see pictures of himself when he was a baby, this is what he’ll see. And the worst part is that by then he’ll think it’s completely normal.
[...] It’s this kind of Truman show fame-from-birth attention that makes knobs like Paris Hilton. And if that isn’t enough to convince you why babies should be seen and not uploaded, have a gander at this. [...]
I made an account just for this comment, but I do believe that the child’s “harness” is actually for holding an insulin pump. They are usually worn under the clothing.. the pouch on her right side would be where the pump is.
Man. There are a lot of sissies on this site. Ha. Yes. That water is pretty gross and I think the parents are pretty lacking in the whole class department for posting this shit on the internet, but some of you guys seem completely freaked by childbirth in general. Where do you guys think babies come from? A couple of you fools act like you think your parents ordered you from Amazon…well, to be fair a few of you probably were.
The part that really makes me laugh about this is how they apparently used up all their crazy person creativity on the first child. They go from Ashanti to Ray.
I also like how in the last picture Ashanti is holding up a lock of her hair and idly inspecting it in the most beautiful display of total and complete boredom in the world.
I agree with automaton. It’s bloody water big whoop I mean I know if i ever have kids I’m not going to do that. I personally wouldn’t want to soak in my own blood but it doesn’t look that bad in the pic. You act like its so gross it could be in a horror movie. And at least there are no pics of the baby actually coming out just the before and after.
I paid $32.67 for a XBOX 360 and my mom got a 17 inch Toshiba laptop for $94.83 being delivered to our house tomorrow by FedEX. I will never again pay expensive retail prices at stores. I even sold a 46 inch HDTV to my boss for $650 and it only cost me $52.78 to get. Here is the website we using to get all this stuff, bidstag. c 0m